Preamble

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

Seaham Harbour Dock Bill,

Lords Amendments considered, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 20th July, and agreed to.

Lytham Saint Anne's Corporation Bill [Lords],

As amended, considered; Amendments made.

Ordered, "That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the Third time."—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

King's Consent signified.

Bill read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.

Swanage Gas and Electricity Bill [Lords],

As amended, considered.

Ordered, "That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the Third time."—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 10) Bill,

Tramways Provisional Orders Bill,

Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions — JUGO-SLAVIA (LOAN).

Mr. NOEL BUXTON: 1.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government has participated in the loan lately advanced by the French Government to Jugo-Slavia; and whether he is aware
that the avowed object of the loan is to strengthen the military forces of Jugoslavia?

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Ronald McNeill): The answer to the first part of this question is in the negative. I am not aware that the Jugo-Slav Government have announced the precise purpose to be served by the loan, but a report by the Finance Committee of the French Chamber includes, among the purposes for which the loan is made, such nonmilitary works as the extension of railways and telegraphs and the provision of rolling stock.

Mr. BUXTON: Will the Foreign Office use its influence with the Jugo-Slav Government as to referring grievances to the League of Nations?

Mr. McNEILL: I could not give any pledge of that sort.

Oral Answers to Questions — CONSULAR SERVICE.

Sir EDWIN STOCKTON: 2.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many Consular positions regarded as being in the first grade are not filled at the present time for any reason; and whether, in view of the importance to trade of an effective Consular Service, he proposes to take steps to fill any vacancies?

Mr. McNEILL: None of the senior posts in the Consular Service is vacant except one in Turkey, which cannot be filled until political conditions allow of the officer selected proceeding to his post.

Oral Answers to Questions — TURKEY (DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR RELATIONS).

3. Sir E. STOCKTON: asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the conclusion of peace at Lausanne, it is proposed to reestablish without delay full British diplomatic and consular representation in Turkey, particularly with the object of promoting trade?

Mr. McNEILL: Normal diplomatic and consular relations with Turkey will be re-established as soon as the Treaty of Peace comes into full force.

Captain BERKELEY: Will the Treaty of Peace be laid before the House for its approval?

Mr. McNEILL: The hon. and gallant Gentleman had better put that question to the Prime Minister.

Oral Answers to Questions — CHINA.

BRITISH INTERESTS (PROTECTION).

Sir HARRY BRITTAIN: 7.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any official knowledge of the present internal state of China; and whether he can state what measures are being taken, if any, for the safeguarding of British citizens domiciled in the Republic and the safeguarding of the property of our nationals?

Mr. McNEILL: His Majesty's Government are aware of the disturbed conditions at present obtaining in China, and are doing all that is possible in the circumstances to safeguard British lives and property in that country. His Majesty's Minister at Peking has been authorised in particular to join with his colleagues in pressing for the establishment of a railway force under foreign officers.

FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE.

Sir H. BRITTAIN: 8.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Consortium is making, or has made, any efforts to afford financial assistance to China during the present crisis?

Mr. McNEILL: I would refer to the answer given on the 14th May to the hon. Member for Wirrall. The Consortium representatives at Peking are at present examining the question of the consolidation of China's existing unsecured obligations, which must be a necessary first step towards the putting in order of Chinese finances. Pending the outcome of this examination, His Majesty's Government deprecate any proposals for making fresh loans to China.

Sir H. BRITTAIN: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that a good deal has happened since the middle of May, and the position is desperate?

Mr. McNEILL: I think that rather reinforces my answer.

PASSPORTS.

Sir H. BRITTAIN: 9.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now prepared to recommend that the life of a British passport be increased from two years to a period of five years or longer?

Mr. McNEILL: I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to his question of 18th June last, to which I have for the moment nothing to add.

Oral Answers to Questions — EGYPT.

RUSSIAN REPRESENTATIVES.

Major ATTLEE: 10.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that there are now in Egypt a Russian Minister, or Russian Consuls, or Russian representatives who claim to represent the late Tsar's Government; whether these persons are in any way recognised by the Egyptian Government; and whether they are maintained or supported at the expense of the Egyptian or British Governments, either by the provision of accommodation or otherwise?

Mr. McNEILL: So far as I am aware, the representative of the late Tsar's Government is still residing in Cairo, but the degree of recognition and the amount of the financial assistance accorded to him by the Egyptian Government are not matters on which I can properly comment, in view of the fact that no funds are supplied and no responsibility in the matter is accepted by His Majesty's Government.

Captain BERKELEY: Is he recognised as a Minister by the British authorities in Egypt as holding diplomatic status?

Mr. McNEILL: I should require notice of that question. I think not, but I am not certain.

DEATH SENTENCES.

Mr. SPOOR: 75.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the appeal of the five Egyptians sentenced to death by a military tribunal in Egypt is pending before the Army Council; if so, whether due regard will be had to the reliability or otherwise of the evidence upon which they were convicted; and whether, in the
interests of promoting good will in Egypt, full consideration wilil be given to all the circumstances?

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Lieut.-Colonel Guinness): No appeal has yet been received, and I am not aware whether the persons referred to are exercising their right of appeal. I can only say, therefore, that in the event of an appeal being received, all due consideration will necessarily be given to it.

NAVAL STRENGTH (GREAT BRITAIN, JAPAN AND FRANCE).

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: 11.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many battleships, battle cruisers, light cruisers, ocean-going destroyers, including flotilla leaders, aircraft carriers, and submarines, are in full commission in the Royal Navy, the Royal Japanese Navy, and the French Navy, respectively?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Commander Eyres-Monsell): As the reply is in tabular form I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman answer the last part of the question as to battleships?

Commander EYRES-MONSELL: I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman had better wait till he sees the tabular statement.

Following is the Tabular Statement:

—
Japan.
France.
British Empire.


Battleships
4
5
13*


Battle Cruisers
3
—
2


Light Cruisers
11
4
34


Destroyers
22
30
71†


Submarines
11
28
41


Aircraft Carriers
1
—
3


* Does not include "Ajax" and "Centurion" which have 3/5ths crews although running with an active service squadron. 


†Including Flotilla Leaders.

Viscount CURZON: 15.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many destroyers are now completed and how many
are building or are to be laid down in the Japanese and British Navies?

The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Amery): Japan has 76 destroyers completed, 12 building, and 21 to be laid down and completed by March, 1928. The British Empire has 183 destroyers built and three building. In addition, there are 16 flotilla leaders completed and two building: The above figures do not include any vessels over 15 years old.

Commander BELLAIRS: 16.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any of the money voted by Japan for increasing the elevation of the guns of her capital ships has yet been spent; and whether Japan now accepts our view that such action would be contrary to the spirit, if not the letter, of the Washington Treaty?

Mr. AMERY: No money has been voted by Japan specifically for increasing elevation of guns. The sum of 50,000,000 yen (£5,000,000) in round figures has been earmarked for "alterations to capital ships," to be divided between the years 1923 to 1931, the amount to be expended in 1923–24 being 2,259,000 yen. It is understood that the existing capital ships are to be given increased protection against air attack, but the details regarding any further alterations that may be contemplated are not known. It is understood from Press reports that ships are to be taken in hand one at a time and the work is to be completed by 1931. With regard to the second part of the question, the Admiralty has no official information.

Captain Viscount CURZON: 14.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can give any particulars as to the number and armaments of the light cruisers now completed in the Japanese and British navies, and how many are building or are to be laid down?

Mr. AMERY: As the reply is a long one in tabular form I will, with my Noble and gallant Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Viscount CURZON: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the number of ships in the two Navies?

Mr. AMERY: Yes, Japan—built, 15; building, 8; to be laid down, 6. British Empire—built, 48; building, 4; to be laid down, none.

The reply is as follows:


JAPANESE LIGHT CRUISERS.


Built number.
Building number.
To be laid down.
Armament.


1
—
—
2–6"; 10–4/"; 2–12 pdr.; 3 T. (18").


3
—
—
8–6"; 4–12 pdr.; 3 T. (18").


2
—
—
4–5/"; 1–12 pdr. AA; 6 T. (21").


9
5
—
7–5/"; 2–12 pdr. AA; 8 T. (21").


—
1
—
6–5 5"; 4T. (21").


—
2
2
7,100 tons, armament not known.


—
—
4
10,000 tons, armament not known.


15
8
6



BRITISH LIGHT CRUISERS.


1
—
—
7–7/"; 4–3" AA.


1
—
—
4–7/"; 4–3" AA; 4–3".


3
—
—
6–6"; 2–4" AA; 4–3 pdr.


5
—
—
6–6"; 2–3" AA; 4–3 pdr.


5
—
—
5–6"; 2–3" AA; 4–3 pdr.


8
—
—
5–6"; 2–3" AA; 4–3 pdr.


2
—
—
5–6"; 2–3" AA; 2–3 pdr.


5
—
—
4–6"; 2–3" AA; 4–3 pdr.


1
—
—
4–6"; 1–3" AA; 2–2 pdr.


4
—
—
4–6"; 2–3" AA.


2
—
—
8–6"; 1–3" AA; 4–3 pdr.


3
—
—
9–6"; 1–3" AA; 4–3 pdr.


6
—
—
8–6"; 1–3" AA; 4–3 pdr.


1
—
—
2–6"; 6–4"; 1–4" AA.


1
—
—
8–6"; 1–3" AA; 4–3 pdr. 


—
2
—
7–7/"; 3–4" AA.


—
2
—
7–6"; 2–4" AA; 4–3 pdr.


48
4
—

Oral Answers to Questions — ROYAL NAVY.

SUNKEN BLOCKSHIPS, SCAPA FLOW.

Sir ROBERT HAMILTON: 12.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the success attending the operations to remove the blockship "Numi-dian" from Holm Sound, Scapa Flow, it is now intended to extend similar operations to the "Lorne" in Water Sound, or other blockships in those waters'?

Commander EYRES-MONSELL: Investigation of the results so far achieved is about to be made on the spot; and the question of dealing with other sunken vessels will not be considered until an official report of the success of the "Numidian" operations has been received, as was. indicated in my reply of the 25th April last.

Mr. MACPHERSON: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any information as to the proposed salvage of the "Natal" at Invergordon?

Commander EYRES-MONSELL: I am afraid that hardly arises out of the question on the paper.

SINGAPORE BASE.

Viscount CURZON: 13.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty which ships of the Royal Navy cannot use the existing dock at Singapore; and whether damaged ships could make use of the existing dock?

Mr. AMERY: The existing dock'at Singapore will not take


2
"Rodney" class (building).


5
"Royal Sovereigns."


2
"Renowns."


5
"Queen Elizabeths" (when bulged).


1
"Hood."


1
"Eagle."


16
(total).


Damaged capital ships or aircraft carriers may draw up to 45 feet. We,
therefore, cannot rely in war on the dock the maximum draught of which is 33 feet taking damaged capital ships or aircraft carriers.

Mr. LAMBERT: 53.
asked the Prime Minister whether, as the Foreign Office did not represent the necessity for a naval base at Singapore, he will say what representations were made that led to the Cabinet decision approving the project?

The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): The development of the naval base at Singapore was recommended by the Admiralty in order to enable modern capital ships to be docked and repaired in Eastern waters and to increase the mobility of the Navy generally. This recommendation was endorsed, after exhaustive inquiry, by the Committee of Imperial Defence and by the Cabinet.

Mr. LAMBERT: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that the Foreign Office was not consulted on this matter at all?

The PRIME MINISTER: I do not know whether it was specifically consulted, but, of course, the Foreign Office is represented in the Cabinet.

Mr. LAMBERT: Did the Foreign Office, as the Department responsible for foreign affairs, apprehend any particular danger in these waters?

The PRIME MINISTER: Had that been the case, obviously it would have been brought to my notice.

Sir A. SHIRLEY BENN: Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been drawn to the statement, reported in the Press, of a leading Japanese statesman in Tokio to the effect that the building of Singapore dock is, if the British Empire is to look after its interests in the Pacific, the natural sequence to the ending of the Japanese-British alliance?

The PRIME MINISTER: I have not seen that, but it seems to me to be a very sensible statement.

Commander BELLAIRS: Is the Prime Minister aware that the only precedent for the Foreign Office establishing a base
was at Wei-hai-wei, and that the Admiralty wisely turned it into a health resort?

Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in 1911 Lord Fisher recommended Singapore as a naval base for the Far East?

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is giving information.

SHIPWRIGHTS.

Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: 18.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if there is a post-War complement for warrant shipwrights; and if it is the intention of the Admiralty to promote the shipwrights who have just completed the final technical qualifying examination in His Majesty's dockyards?

Commander EYRES-MONSELL: The post-War establishment has not yet been definitely fixed, but it is anticipated that it will shortly be settled, and it is then the intention to make a small number of promotions to warrant ship-wrights as may be found necessary to meet requirements.

WIDOWS' PENSIONS, RELATIVE RANK, AND OFFICERS' ACCOMMODATION.

Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: 19.
asked the First Lord of they Admiralty whether the Committees appointed to consider the questions respecting the position of post-War widows' pensions, relative rank, and officers' accommodation are still sitting; and, if so, can he inform the House when their Reports will be received?

Commander EYRES-MONSELL: The question of post-War rates of pensions for widows of warrant officers and commissioned officers from warrant rank and certain other classes is still under consideration. The Committee set up to consider the accommodation in His Majesty's ships is still sitting and I cannot say at present when their Report will be received.

Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Am I to understand that the Committees are about to be re-formed, or are already formed?

Commander EYRES-MONSELL: It is still under consideration.

SICK BERTH, SUPPLY, AND NAVAL COOK BRANCHES.

Major Sir BERTRAM FALLE: 20.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that automatic promotion is already existent in His Majesty's Navy, he will consider the introduction of automatic promotion for the sick berth, supply, and naval cook branches in His Majesty's Navy?

Commander EYRES-MONSELL: The answer is in the negative.

Viscountess ASTOR: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there has been no promotion among sick berth attendants at Plymouth since October, 1921, and that there have been great delays in the naval cook branch?

Commander EYRES-MONSELL: That hardly arises out of the question. The question is whether promotion should be automatic.

Viscountess ASTOR: I think it does arise out of the question. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order‡"] Who is "ordering" me?

LIFE CERTIFICATE (SIGNATURE).

Sir B. FALLE: 21.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that a sergeant of police is authorized to sign the life certificate of a pensioner, he will extend the Regulation to admit of pensioner chief petty officers and chief petty officers of the Royal Navy, who hold a relatively higher rank, to do so?

Commander EYRES-MONSELL: The selection of persons allowed to attest life certificates of pensioners is a matter for the Treasury, but the Admiralty see no reason for making the proposed extension.

Sir B. FALLE: Can the right hon. and gallant Member say why a distinction is made against the senior Service?

Commander EYRES-MONSELL: It is a Treasury rule, and the sergeants at police stations are considered very suitable people to sign. It is no reflection on anybody else.

CANTEEN REPRESENTATIVES.

Sir B. FALLE: 22.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in the reply given to Item 53 of the 1922 General Welfare Requests, it is to be understood that it is the Admiralty's intention to
permit serving ratings of His Majesty's Royal Navy to elect a civilian to represent them at the quarterly meetings of the Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes; whether the Admiralty realise the serious consequences of such a decision; and, if such is not the intention, will they revise the reply given to the item in question to make it quite clear that canteen representatives must be serving ratings as requested by the welfare representatives?

Commander EYRES-MONSELL: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative and to the second part, that the Admiralty do not consider that the decision involves any serious consequences whatsoever. The third part of the question does not arise.

AIR OFFICERS AND MEN.

Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: 23.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how long the Admiralty intends to retain and pay 140 officers and 1,000 men in anticipation of some decision of the Government to set up a naval branch of the Air Service?

Mr. AMERY: I hope that a decision will shortly be announced on the issue referred to by the hon. and gallant Member.

Captain BENN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is any precedent for a public office continuing to employ people without any decision of Parliament, and paying them, in anticipation of something which they hope is going to be done?

Mr. AMERY: The personnel referred to were kept on with the sanction of the Treasury, and whilst pending a decision.

Captain BENN: Does the right hon. Gentleman set up the principle that the Cabinet is to decide how public money is to be expended, or is it this House?

Viscount CURZON: Was not this question fully debated and answered by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Amery) in the course of discussion in this House?

PENSIONS (COLONIAL SERVICE).

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: 24.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the welfare decision, promulgated in Admiralty Fleet Order 1,703, item No. 4, stating that the first period of 12 years is not considered
pensionable service unless the engagement to complete the time for pension is entered upon, he will state the amount received by the Admiralty in respect of pension liability on account of active service ratings loaned to the Colonial navies during the last five years; whether this money has been deducted from the pay and allowances of the men so loaned; and, having in view Article 368 K.R. and A.I., whether it is proposed to take steps to refund to any such men who do not reengage to complete the time for pension, or who are discharged before the expiration of their engagements, the amount deducted for pension liability?

Commander EYRES-MONSELL: As the reply is somewhat long, I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The reply is as follows:

The amount received from Dominion Governments in respect of pension liability for men lent from the Imperial Navy during the last five years amounted to approximately £120,000. This includes the contribution in respect of men in their first or second engagements, non-continuous service ratings and reservists, and also arrears of increased rates levied after the introduction of higher scales of pension in 1919. In the case of Australia and New Zealand, the contribution is deducted by the Dominion authorities from the deferred pay issuable under Dominion regulations. In Canada deferred pay is not granted, and the Canadian Government pay the pension contribution. With regard to the last part of the question, the reference to Article 368 of the King's Regulations and Admiralty Instructions is not understood, and I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member for the North Division of Portsmouth on the 18th July.

OFFICERS' PAY.

Mr. PRIVETT: 25.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether it is proposed to revise the rates of pay for naval officers next year; and, if so, will he appoint a Committee beforehand to inquire into the question and give facilities for officers to appear before the Committee to state their views on the subject?

Commander EYRES-MONSELL: The general question is now being considered by the Anderson Committee.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Do you propose to revise these rates upwards or downwards?

Commander EYRES-MONSELL: I must leave that to the Anderson Committee.

SIGNAL AND WIRELESS SCHOOLS, PORTSMOUTH (WOMEN EMPLOYES).

Mr. PRIVETT: 26.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty the number of women employed in the signal and wireless schools in the Royal Naval Barracks, Portsmouth, as tracers, valve testers, and clerks, and the amount of money per year required to meet these requirements; and whether he will, without detriment to any widows or single women who may have dependants solely depending upon their income from this source, substitute suitable ex-naval ratings with families rather than compel them to seek out-of-work relief?

Commander EYRES-MONSELL: I am having the desired information obtained, and will communicate with my hon. Friend as soon as it has been received.

ALIEN IMMIGRANTS (PERMITS).

Captain AINSWORTH: 27.
asked the Minister of Labour how many permit she has issued within the last year to alien immigrants on the ground that his Ministry is satisfied that the posts which these immigrants came to fill could not be filled by residents in this country; and whether he will state the exact nature of the various specific posts?

The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Montague Barlow): As the answer is somewhat long, I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

The number of permits issued by the Minister of Labour under Article 1 (3) (b) of the Aliens Order, 1920, during the twelve months ended the 15th June last was 2,608. Permits were refused in 1,720 cases. Permits are not ordinarily issued except where the prospective employer has made proper efforts to obtain suitable
employés in the country but without success, or where the admission of the alien will lead to increased employment for British workpeople. In many cases the alien is required to give instruction in special processes, and other conditions are imposed in appropriate cases with the object of safeguarding the position of British employés. It may be added that in a large number of instances, the permits were granted for a limited period only.

The classes of alien employés in respect of whom permits were issued were as follows:


Domestic servants
845


Musicians, including soloists
86


Variety artists, concert artists, and actors, etc.
753


Foreign correspondence clerks, etc. (including 148 admitted for training prior to transfer abroad or to replace other so transferred, and 92 admitted temporarily to take nominal posts while studying)
340


Mosaic terrazzo and asphalt workers, etc.
39


Engineers (to erect imported machinery)
73


Glass workers
39


Watch and watch-case makers
7


Spelter furnace workers
37


Sugar-beet workers (seasonal employment)
20


Seine net fishers, cod splitters, etc.(seasonal vacancies)
69


Hotel and restaurant employés (mainly in exchange for British employés proceeding abroad for experience)
71


Teachers of foreign languages
116


Nurses
31


Miscellaneous
82



2,608

Oral Answers to Questions — UNEMPLOYMENT.

DOCK DISPUTE, LONDON.

Major ATTLEE: 30
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that men in the area of the London dock dispute are being refused unemployment benefit, although they have been unemployed and in receipt of benefit prior to the occur-
rence of the dispute; and whether he will issue instructions to the officials of the Labour Exchanges to prevent these men being deprived of the benefit for which they have paid and to which they are entitled?

Sir M. BARLOW: Dock workers in London within the area of the general dispute have been held by the Chief Insurance Officer to be disqualified for benefit under Section 8 (1) of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920. The Court of Referees on appeal upheld the Insurance Officer's decision, but gave the applicants leave to appeal to the Umpire. Further appeal may, therefore, be made to the Umpire by the applicants themselves or by any association of which they are members. I have no authority to order payment of benefit contrary to the decisions arrived at by the machinery of the Insurance Officer, Court of Referees and the Umpire.

Major ATTLEE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are a very large number of men at the docks who have been unemployed during a great period, and will now be deprived of the benefit for which they paid? Cannot something be done to deal with their cases?

Sir M. BARLOW: To use the word" deprive "rather begs the question. Here is the machinery for deciding these cases, and that machinery is open to the men. They can appeal to the umpires. I cannot alter the decision of the umpires.

Mr. MUIR: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the decision is correct?

BENEFIT.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: 32.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he will have immediate inquiry made as to the action of the Audley Employment Exchange in making the gap in benefit now instead of at the end of the benefit year, because work may be available in harvesting, in view of the hardship imposed on people who did not expect the gap so early?

Sir M. BARLOW: Local employment committees are authorised to recommend the suspension of uncovenanted benefit in particular cases, whether in order to vary
the period during which the Statutory "gap" will fall or for other reasons, I understand that the local committee has taken such action in a case of which the hen. and gallant Member has sent me particulars, and I am inquiring into this.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that similar action has been taken in a number of cases, and is it within the powers of the local committee to alter the gap for a whole category of workers, or only in individual cases?

Sir M. BARLOW: I should like to have notice of that question. Prima facie, it has to be dealt with by individual cases.

INSURANCE BY INDUSTRIES.

Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLE: 36.
asked the Minister of Labour the result of the consideration given, as promised, by his Department to the proposal of insurance by industries and to the Watson Report on the insurance scheme as a whole?

Sir M. BARLOW: I wrote on 28th November, 1922, to the National Confederation of Employers' Organisations and the Trades Union Congress General Council inviting their views on the question of unemployment insurance by industries, and I am at present awaiting replies from these organisations. From inquiry which I made recently, I understand they still have the matter under consideration. The Inter-Departmental Committee on Health and Unemployment Insurance has made three interim Reports. Action has been taken in accordance with the recommendations of the first two Reports. The Third Report recommended the abolition of refunds to insured workers at the age of 60 and a modification of the rule limiting covenanted benefit in relation to the number of contributions paid; these recommendations could not be adopted -without legislation.

Mr. SOMERVILLE: 37.
also asked the Minister of Labour the present number of workers who come under the provisions of the Unemployment Insurance Act; and whether they do all contribute when actually in employment?

Sir M. BARLOW: The total number of persons falling under the provisions of the Unemployment Insurance Scheme in Great Britain is estimated at about 11,500,000. There are naturally a certain number of cases of failure on the part of employers and workmen to pay contributions, but, generally speaking, contributions are duly paid by all of them. I may add that the unemployment insurance contributions from employers and employed at the present time amount to about £34,000,000 per annum.

GOVERNMENT PLANS.

Mr. BECKER: 45.
asked the Prime Minister what preparation the Government has made to relieve unemployment during the coming winter?

Mr. T. THOMSON: 46.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the serious prospects of the continuance of a large amount of unemployment, what further steps the Government are taking to provide for the situation which will arise in the coming winter; and whether the public work to be put in hand or assisted and the funds available will provide employment for as many men as were employed by similar means last winter?

Mr. SNOWDEN: 50.
asked the Prime Minister what special steps are being taken by the Government, in view of the serious statements as to the trade outlook recently made by Ministers, to deal with the unemployment problem during the coming winter?

The PRIME MINISTER: It is not possible to deal with this matter by means of question and answer. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, however, proposes to make a full statement on the subject before the House adjourns, and perhaps hon. Members will await that statement.

Captain BENN: When shall we have an opportunity of debating this question?

The PRIME MINISTER: I think probably on the second day of the Consolidated Fund Bill.

Mr. T. THOMSON: Will the Government in making their statement have regard to the fact that the financial position of those areas where unemployment is greatest is worse than it was last year?

CREDIT FACILITIES.

Mr. GRAHAM WHITE: 54.
asked the Prime Minister if any inquiry is being made into the relation of credit facilities to unemployment; and, if not, if he will institute an expert inquiry into the whole question of the relations of currency policy, price movements, and unemployment?

The PRIME MINISTER: I do not think that the time has yet arrived when such an inquiry could serve any useful purpose.

NECESSITOUS AREAS.

Mr. T. THOMSON: 57
asked the Minister of Health whether he is prepared to accept the formula submitted by the representatives of certain necessitous areas as a basis for granting assistance towards the abnormal burden thrown on their local rates, due to the unemployment in their districts being much in excess of the average for the rest of the country?

The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Neville Chamberlain): No, Sir. On careful consideration I came to the conclusion that I could not recommend acceptance of the formula in view of the inequitable results which it would produce as between different areas. I may add that the position of the so-called necessitous areas is at present under the consideration of a Cabinet Committee, and I hope to make a statement as to the decision of the Government before the Adjournment.

Mr. THOMSON: Will that statement be made in answer to a question, or in debate?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am afraid I cannot answer that question, but I will communicate with the hon. Member.

OUTDOOR RELIEF.

Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLE: 63.
asked the Minister of Health if, taking all towns with over 25,000 population, he can state the six which pay out on the highest scale of outdoor relief for able-bodied unemployment and the six which pay out the lowest scale for such men, giving the figures in each case.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement giving this information.

Following is the statement promised:

According to the information in the Department, the six unions including towns with a population exceeding 25,000 with the highest scales of out-door relief to able-bodied unemployed are as follows:—

1. Bermondsey.



s.
d.


Man and wife
28
6


Man and wife and 1 child
34
6


Man and wife and 2 children
39
6


Man and wife and 3 children
44
6


Man and wife and 4 children.
48
6


Man and wife and 5 children
51
0


Maximum relief per household,52s. 6d.

2. Poplar.



s.
d.


Man and wife.
20
0


Man and wife and 1 child
26
6


Man and wife and 2 children
31
6


Man and wife and 3 children
36
6


Man and wife and 4 children
41
6


Man and wife and 5 children
46
6


Man and wife and 6 children
51
6

Plus rent. Plus coal to value of 1s. 6d. per week.

Children over 16 and under 18, addition to parents' relief of 10s. boys and 8s. girls.

3. Willesden.



s.
d.


Man and wife
20
0


Man and wife and 1 child
26
0


Man and wife and 2 children
31
0


Man and wife and 3 children
35
0


Man and wife and 4 children
38
0


Man and wife and 5 children
41
0


Man and wife and 6 children
44
0

Maximum relief per household, 50s.

Plus rent not to exceed 12s.

4. Greenwich.



s.
d.


Man and wife
25
0


Man and wife and 1 child
31
0


Man and wife and 2 children
36
0


Man and wife and 3 children
41
0


Man and wife and 4 children
45
0


Man and wife and 5 children
49
0

Maximum income per household,50s. 6d.

Plus rent up to 7s. if rent exceeds 5s.

5. Chester Le Street.



s.
d.


Man and wife
25
0


Man and wife and 1 child
30
0


Man and wife and 2 children
35
0


Man and wife and 3 Children
40
0


Man and wife and 4 children
45
0


Man and wife and 5 children
50
0

Maximum income per household, 50s

Plus two-thirds of weekly rent.

6. Mile End Old Town.



s.
d.


Man and wife
25
0


Man and wife and 1 child
31
0


Man and wife and 2 children
36
0


Man and wife and 3 children
41
0


Man and wife and 4 children
45
0


Man and wife and 5 children
49
0


Man and wife and 6 children
50
6



Maximum

Plus half rent.

The six unions including towns with a population exceeding 25,000 with the?lowest scales of out-door relief to able-bodied unemployed are as follows:—

1. Dudley.



s.
d.


Man and wife
18
0


Man and wife and 1 child
20
0


Man and wife and 2 children
21
0


Man and wife and 3 children
22
0


Man and wife and 4 children
23
0


Man and wife and 5 children
24
0


Man and wife and 6 children
25
0


Man and wife and 7 children
26
0


Man and wife and 8 children
27
0


Maximum income per household, 27s.

2. Bridgwater.



s.
d.


Man and wife
20
0


Man and wife and 1 child
22
0


Man and wife and 2 children
23
0


Man and wife and 3 children
24
0


Man and wife and 4 children 
25
0


Man and wife and 5 children
26
0


Man and wife and 6 children
27
0


Maximum income per household, 27s.

3. Dover.



s.
d.


Man and wife
15
0


Man and wife 1 children
17
6


Man and wife 2 children
20
0


Man and wife 3 children
22
6


Man and wife 4 children
25 
0


Man and wife 5 children
27
6


Man and wife 6 children
30
0


Maximum income per household, 30s.

4. Penzance.



s.
d.


Man and wife
13
0


Man and wife and 1 child
16
0


Man and wife and 2 children
19
0


Man and wife and 3 children
22
0


Man and wife and 4 children
25
0


Man and wife and 5 children
28
0


Maximum income per household, 30s.

5. Sudbury.



s.
d.


Man and wife
18
0


Man and wife and 1 child
21
0


Man and wife and 2 children
23
0


Man and wife and 3 children
25
0


Man and wife and 4 children
27
0


Man and wife and 5 children
29
0


Man and wife and 6 children
30
0


Maximum income per household, 30s.

6. Tavistock.



s.
d.


Man and wife
18
0


Man and wife and 1 child
21
0


Man and wife and 2 children
24
0


Man and wife and 3 children
26
0


Man and wife and 4 children
28
0


Man and wife and 5 children
30
0


Maximum income per household, 30s.

BOY LABOUR (MERSEYSIDE DOCKS).

Mr. G. WHITE: 34.
asked the Minister of Labour the reasons for the delay in acting on the Reports on boy labour at the Merseyside Docks; and if he will take steps to call a local conference of all concerned to consider the draft scheme prepared by the Ministry?

Sir M. BARLOW: I am not aware that there has been any avoidable delay. I have no compulsory powers in this matter, which can therefore only be dealt with by discussion and agreement. The draft scheme has been circulated to the parties concerned and at the present time I am awaiting their observations, and when these replies are received I shall be prepared to consider whether a local conference can be called with advantage.

Oral Answers to Questions — HOUSING.

BRICK SHORTAGE.

Mr. FRANK GRAY: 38.
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware
that certain building operations are held up by reason of the shortage of supply of English bricks; whether he has any information as to the reason for this; and whether he can inform the House if there are a number of brickfields, working in 1914, which have not been reopened since the War?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am aware that there is a temporary shortage of bricks in London and the South-Eastern Counties, and am informed that the Committee on Building Materials Prices will deal with this question in their report, which will be presented this week. There are, no doubt, some brickfields which, for economic reasons, are not producing at present, but I have no records of the numbers of them.

APPROVED SCHEMES.

Mr. RHYS DAVIES: 39.
asked the Minister of Health the total number of approved schemes already sanctioned under the Housing Bill showing the numbers of schemes and houses of local authorities and private enterprise, respectively?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: 187 schemes providing for the erection of 13,382 houses by local authorities and 37 schemes providing for the erection of 3,486 houses by private enterprise have been approved under the Housing Bill.

Mr. T. THOMSON: 60.
asked the Minister of Health if he will give the latest information available as to the applications received for the erection of houses under the various schemes permitted by his new Housing Bill, the number sanctioned, and the number he estimates likely to be put in hand before the end of the year?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Up-to-date pro posals under the Bill have been submitted for the erection of approximately 22,000 houses and approvals have been given in respect of 16,868 houses. I have no means of estimating the number likely to be put in hand before the end of the year.

DIABETES (INSULIN TREATMENT).

Captain Viscount EDNAM: 40.
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that diabetic sufferers are unable to obtain insulin treatment at a lower
cost than 10s. per day, although panel patients under the Insurance Act are obtaining free treatment; and whether he will make arrangements for uninsured persons to obtain this treatment at a lower cost?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am advised that the average cost of insulin is at present about one-third of the figure stated by my Noble and gallant Friend, though the treatment of exceptionally severe cases such as must go to an institution may cost more. It is within the power of the guardians, on the advice of their medical officer, to pay for the supply of insulin in cases of destitution.

Viscount EDNAM: In view of the importance of this cure, does the right hon. Gentleman not think the time has come for the Ministry to control prices?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not think so, because the price has been reduced already very materially, and I have good hope that it will be still further reduced.

Viscount EDNAM: But is it not far above the figure which the ordinary person can pay?

DEATHS FROM STARVATION, LONDON.

Mr. R. RICHARDSON: 41.
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that it was ascertained, by inquests, that in 1921 three persons died of starvation, in the unions of Hammersmith, St. Olave, and Bermondsey, in the County of London; whether his Department has taken any, and, if so, what steps to prevent similar deaths; whether any and, if so, how many deaths in that county in 1922 were found by inquest to have been due to starvation or accelerated by privation; if he can supply particulars as to age, sex, date of inquest, and union concerned; whether any and, if so, what, Poor Law officers were examined at the inquest; and whether any of the persons so dying in either year were tramps or homeless?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am aware that three cases of death which occurred in the County of London in 1921 were found by inquest to be due to starvation. The unions concerned were Paddington, Hammersmith and Bermondsey. In the year 1922 no deaths in the county were
found by inquest to have been due to starvation or exposure, and accordingly the third and fourth parts of the question do not arise. The death which occurred in the Hammersmith union in 1921 was that of a homeless man.

CASUAL WARDS, YORKSHIRE (MIDDAY MEALS).

Mr. R. RICHARDSON: 42.
asked the Minister of Health whether, in the 19 workhouses in Yorkshire and elsewhere where the casual wards are closed, midday meals have in fact been given to all the destitute wayfarers who, had the casual wards been open to them, would have been entitled to such meals under the Casual Paupers Order, Article 8; if he will obtain definite information from each workhouse how many casuals obtained and how many did not obtain the midday meal; and state in what book or account the gift or expense of midday meals in workhouses, when there is no casual ward, is recorded which ratepayers may inspect at the audit?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have no reason to suppose that midday meals have not been duly supplied in the cases to which the hon. Member refers, but if he has any case in mind in which there is alleged to have been a failure in this respect, I will gladly investigate the case. I cannot, however, undertake such general inquiries as are suggested. The expenditure in respect of the meals supplied to casuals is recorded in a provisions consumption account which is open to the inspection of ratepayers at the audit.

Mr. RICHARDSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that large numbers of men who are seeking employment and cannot get a meal are frequently passing these places?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If the hon. Member will give me particulars of any cases I will look into them.

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.

COMMITTEE OFFICERS (PENSIONS).

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: 43.
asked the Minister of Health whether it
is proposed to secure, as early as possible, the necessary legislative authority for the staffs of insurance committees to be included in the Local Government Officers Superannuation Act or, alternatively, for insurance committees to make the appropriate contribution to a scheme of superannuation giving equivalent benefits?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: As regards the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to my reply to a similar question by the hon. Member for East Hull on the 11th July. As regards the second part, insurance committees have no power to contribute to superannuation schemes, though it is open to them to make contribution to a superannuation fund on the part of their staffs a condition of employment. In view, however, of the limited amount available for expenses of administration, I am not prepared to sanction increases of salary designed to relieve the contributors of any part of their contributions.

CONTRIBUTIONS.

Major McKENZIE WOOD: 67.
asked the Minister of Health what amounts were received in each of the years 1921 and 1922 in England and Scotland, respectively, on account of national health insurance contributions; and what is the shortage in each year as compared with the amounts estimated?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: With the hon. Member's permission, I propose to circulate the answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

The amounts of health insurance contributions were approximately as follows:


In England and Wales:





£


1921
…
…
 22,130,000


1922
…
…
22,500,000


In Scotland:


1921 
…
…
2,740,000


1922 
…
…
2,720,000


The shortage of contributions as compared with the amount assumed in the financial basis of the Act, namely, about 48 contributions per insured person per annum, is estimated to be approximately 7 per cent. in England and Wales and 10 per cent. in Scotland.

HOSPITAL ACCOMMODATION.

Mr. R. DAVIES: 44.
asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that the voluntary hospitals of the country are crowded and subject to long waiting lists and that a large number of beds are unused in the Poor Law hospitals, he can take some immediate action to remove this anomaly?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not think I could usefully undertake any general action in the direction suggested, but I should be very glad to consider any proposals which may be put forward by boards of guardians and the authorities of the hospitals for the general use of surplus accommodation in, Poor Law infirmaries.

SLAVE TRADE, ABYSSINIA.

Mr. WALLHEAD: 47.
asked the Prime Minister whether he is prepared to propose the admission of Abyssinia to the League of Nations as a sovereign State in order that the League may bring its full influence to bear with that State for the purpose of ending the slave-holding system which exists in Abyssinia?

The PRIME MINISTER: There is no provision in the Covenant for a State being proposed as a member of the League by another State. It is for any State seeking admission to apply for membership itself. The answer is therefore in the negative.

Captain BERKELEY: Will the British Government suggest to Abyssinia that she should apply for membership?

The PRIME MINISTER: I think that we must wait and see.

SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND

Mr. HARDIE: 48.
asked the Minister whether he is making arrangements to secure the presence of a Secretary for Scotland in the House of Commons next Session?

The PRIME MINISTER: The answer is in the negative.

Mr. HARDIE: If we guarantee a safe seat in Glasgow, is there any chance of obtaining someone?

PRE-WAR PENSIONS.

Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: 51.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in order to allay the anxiety that prevails among the pre-War pensioners on the question, and in view of the postponement of the Pensions (Increase) Amendment Bill, he will follow the course taken by the Government before introducing the Pensions (Increase) Bill in 1920, and make a short statement to the House, giving the classes of pensioners that will be affected by the Measure and what increase will be given and can he say what will be the cost to the Exchequer of the additional percentages?

The PRIME MINISTER: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which was given him on this subject on the 12th July by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. I still feel that it would be desirable to await the introduction of the Bill, and I hope my hon. Friend will not press his request.

SMALL-POX AND VACCINATIONS.

Mr. ADAMS: 58.
asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that public vaccination is controlled by the Poor Law authorities, who have no responsibility in the prevention of smallpox, he will take the necessary steps to transfer their powers in this connection to the health authorities, who are responsible for the prevention of this disease?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: This suggestion is under consideration in connection with the general question of possible amendment of the Vaccination Acts.

BIRTHS, DEATHS AND MARRIAGES (REGISTRATION).

Mr. ADAMS: 59.
asked the Minister of Health whether, seeing that the registration of births, deaths, and marriages, carried out to the requirements of the Registrar-General, is under the control of the Poor Law guardians, although these have little interest in the subject, he will transfer this duty to the health authorities who are mainly concerned, and who incur unavoidable expenditure in the purchase of copies of the Registrar's Returns each year?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: As previously stated, the reorganisation of the registration service is being considered, and the hon. Member's suggestion will be borne in mind. I am not, however, as yet in a position to make any announcement on the subject.

DEATHS UNDER ANÆSTHETICS.

Mr. BARNES: 65.
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that on Saturday, 8th May, 1923, Mr. Ernest Charles Glover, of 46, Groseley Lane, East Ham, was sent by his doctor to Poplar Hospital for a minor operation for stricture; that an anæsthetic was administered and an operation performed in his bed and not in the operating theatre, and that Glover did not recover from the operation; that at the inquest the coroner commented upon the fact that it was the third inquest he had held that day upon persons who had died following the administration of anæsthetics, and stated that, in his opinion, further investigation was necessary; and will he state to the House whether he will investigate these cases to ascertain if every care was exercised and, in addition, order an inquiry into the science of anæsthesia generally to safeguard the public from these unanticipated fatalities?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have not received particulars of the case to which the hon. Member refers, but I will make inquiry with a view to considering whether further action is called for.

SHERIFFS' OFFICERS (FEES).

Mr. LEACH: 70.
asked the Attorney-General if the accounts of sheriffs' officers concerned with County Court work and their charges for levying writs of fi. fa. are subject to audit by any Government Department?

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Douglas Hogg): Execution in the County Court is levied by the High Bailiff and his officers, and not by the Sheriff. The fees are those prescribed by the County Courts Fees Order, or ordered or allowed by the judge under that Order. In the majority of cases the State has no pecuniary interest, as the fees are, paid over to the profit of the High Bailiff or
Registrar, and there is nothing to audit, though the books are examined and any improper charge would, of course, be reported to the Lord Chancellor. Where by arrangement the High Bailiff pays over part of the fees to the County Courts Department, the County Court Examiner checks the receipts to see that the proper amount is paid over.

KEW GARDENS.

Mr. LANSBURY: 72.
asked the First Commissioner of Works if he will make arrangements to allow the greenhouses at Kew Gardens to remain open until 6 p.m. on bank holidays as on Sundays, in order that as large a number of people as possible might have an opportunity of seeing the flowers and shrubs on exhibition in these places?

Major BARNSTON (Comptroller of the Household): I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture. My right hon. Friend will be glad to make the arrangements suggested by the hon. Member.

Oral Answers to Questions — BRITISH ARMY.

DUMPED AMMUNITION (BRITISH WATERS).

Sir EDWIN STOCKTON: 73.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War the portions of waters round the British coasts where T.N.T. and other explosive refuse is being dumped; and whether there have been any complaints of the practice?

Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: Considerable quantities of waste ammunition have been dumped since the War in areas settled by the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries in consultation with the War Office and other Departments concerned. The principal areas in proximity to the British Isles which have been used for dumping within the last 12 months are designated by the following central points:

Between the Isle of Man and Anglesey, 53º32N., 4º50W.
In the Channel near the Hurd Deep at 49º50N., 2º20W.
In the Bristol Channel, 51º32N., 4º50W.

Minor quantities have been dumped at a point on the Goodwin Sands and off Portsmouth and Plymouth. All areas have been carefully selected with a view to avoiding interference with fishing operations or navigation and danger to fishermen. Early in 1920 dumping took place in the Black Deep in the Thames Estuary. Complaints were received from the Oyster Merchants' and Shellfish Planters' Association that this dumping had caused injury to oyster beds, but, after the fullest examination, the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries have come to the conclusion that these complaints are ill-founded. No dumping has taken place in the Thames Estuary since 1920. A few minor complaints as to the washing ashore of dumped material and as to damage to nets have also been received and dealt with. All possible steps are taken to ensure that all dumped material shall remain on the bottom, where it is dumped.

MILITARY ACCOUNTANTS.

Mr. MOSLEY: 76.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the Army Council has at present under consideration any proposals for economies to be effected as regards the Corps of Military Accountants; and whether they are considering the retention of this body in its present form?

The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Gwynne): Economies are constantly being effected in this corps as opportunity arises, and its cost has been reduced by 45 per cent. since 1921–22. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given yesterday to the hon. and gallant Member for Basingstoke (Sir A. Holbrook).

Lieut.-Colonel HODGE: Will the hon. Gentleman kindly say whether or not it has yet been decided to amalgamate this body, the Corps of Military Accountants, with the Royal Army Pay Corps?

Mr. GWYNNE: If the hon. and gallant Member will read the answer I gave yesterday, he will see that no decision has yet been come to.

PRE-WAR PENSIONERS.

Sir KINGSLEY WOOD: 77.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he
is aware that the pre-War re-enlisted pensioner whose pension has been reassessed under Article 1030 (a), Royal Warrant, 1922, and whose disability element is assessed at the minimum of 6s. 6d. per week, as laid down in this article, is subjected to a still further reduction of this amount by 50 per cent., and granted 3s. 3d. per week only: whether there is any regulation authorising such reduction; and if he will see that this matter is readjusted?

Mr. GWYNNE: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave him on the 6th July, on this very point.

Sir K. WOOD: Can the hon. Gentle-man do anything in those very unfortunate cases where a man in work is receiving less remuneration than another man and his family who have applied to the guardians.

Mr. GWYNNE: If the hon. Gentleman will read my reply of 6th July, he will see that I answered the question very fully, and that my Department must act on the definite rules laid down in the Army Order.

MILITARY STRENGTH (GREAT POWERS).

Mr. COLLISON: 74.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War the number of men under arms in Great Britain, France, Germany, Russia, and the United States of America in the years 1913 and 1922?

Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: The figures of men under arms for 1913 and 1922, respectively, are as follow:



1913
1922


Great Britain
106,514
80,919


France
666,743
450,859


Germany
836,000
100,000


Russia
1,300,000
Varying between 900,000 and 1,300,000


United States of America
86,500
137,000

Mr. J. DAVISON: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman state the cost to each nation and the maintenance of these men?

Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: I shall have to have notice of that question.

Lieut.-Colonel NALL: Is the House to understand that the only important Power which has actually increased its armed forces is the United States?

Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: That is so.

HON. MEMBERS: What about Russia?

Oral Answers to Questions — EDUCATION.

SECONDARY SCHOOLS.

Mr. WEBB: 79.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he can state, approximately, for the years 1913 and 1922, respectively, the total number of boys and of girls on the roll of secondary schools in England and Wales,

ENGLAND AND WALES.


SECONDARY SCHOOLS ON THE GRANT LIST.


Number of Full-time Pupils.


1st October.
Schools provided or aided by Local Education Authorities.
Other Schools.
Total.





Boys.
Girls.
Boys.
Girls.



1913
…
…
89,621
73,187
10,376
14,463
187,647


1922
…
…
176,611
161,158
10,744
15,731
364,244

Approximate number of boys and girls (Free-placers and other pupils), respectively, in schools provided or aided by Local Education Authorities.

NOTE.—A. Free Place Pupils are pupils entering from Public Elementary Schools with free places awarded under the conditions of Article 20 and the Appendix to the Regulations for Secondary Schools.

B. Other Pupils are mainly fee-paying, but include a small number (about 4 per cent.) who pay no fees though they are not "Free Place" pupils within the meaning of Article 20.

1st October.
Free Place Pupils.
Other Pupils.
Total.





Boys.
Girls.
Boys.
Girls.



1913
…
…
28,787
27,156
60,834
46,031
162,808


1922
…
…
61,097
63,000
115,514
98,158
337,769

TEACHERS' SUPERANNUATION.

Mr. W. GRAHAM: 80.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he can state when the Report of Lord Emmott's Committee dealing with questions affecting the superannuation of teachers will be issued?
whether provided by local education authorities or aided by them, and also in the other secondary schools officially recognised by the Ministry of Education; and what were the total numbers of boys and girls, respectively, in the years referred to who were in attendance at the publicly provided or aided secondary schools as scholars or free-placers on the one hand and as fee-payers on the other?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY of HEALTH (Lord Eustace Percy): As the answer contains a number of figures, my right hon. Friend will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL RBPORT.

Following is the answer:

Lord E. PERCY: My right hon. Friend is not in a position to make any statement.

Mr. W. GRAHAM: Cannot even an approximate date be suggested for the issue of this Report, in view of the very long Recess?

Lord E. PERCY: I am afraid my right hon. Friend really is not in a position to state, even approximately, when the proceedings of this Committee will terminate.

ELEMENTARY SCHOOL (BROMLEY-BY-BOW).

Mr. LANSBURY: 81.
asked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware that the elementary day school belonging to the London County Council at High Street, Bromley-by-Bow, was condemned as unfit for use as a school some years before the War; that this school is one of the oldest in the County of London and is constantly flooded during heavy rainfalls; that the London County Council has acquired another site on which to build a new school, the houses on which are in a very dilapidated condition, some of them having fallen into ruins; and will he, in order that a proper school might be provided for the children of this neighbourhood, bring pressure to bear upon the London County Council immediately to take the necessary steps for providing a new school, especially in view of the fact that the present building is not only inadequate and insanitary, but that there is in the district a very large number of unemployed in receipt of unemployment pay and out-door relief who could be much better employed in erecting the new school?

Lord E. PERCY: The premises of this school have never been formally condemned by the Board. In view, however, of their old-fashioned character and their inconvenient situation, the London County Council decided in 1912 to provide another school upon a new site. Owing to the War the building of the new school has not been proceeded with, but my right hon. Friend understands that a site for it is now in process of being purchased. He has no information bearing out the statement as to the flooding and the insanitary nature of the present premises. My right hon. Friend is, however, making further inquiry.

Mr. LANSBURY: May I ask the Noble Lord if he will inform his right hon. Friend that there is no suggestion in the question that the Board have condemned the school? The London County Council condemned the school when I was a member of that body.

DENTAL TREATMENT.

Mr. FRANK LEE: 82.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he receives any Returns showing the extent of school dental work undertaken by local education authorities; and, if so, whether he will issue a summary of the latest Returns for the information of the House, and/or instruct the Chief Medical Officer of his Department to include a complete summary in his next Annual Report?

Lord E. PERCY: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The Chief Medical Officer of the Board proposes to include such a summary in the forthcoming issue of his Annual Report.

LAND CULTIVATION, HAMPSHIRE.

Mr. DUNCAN: 88.
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that 30 agricultural workers are now without regular employment who were previously employed on 1,400 acres of land that has gone out of cultivation in the parishes of Barton Stacey and Wonston, in Hampshire; and whether he will take steps to introduce a Bill that will restore the powers of agricultural committees to enforce good husbandry and thus help to protect both workmen and farmers from what is a danger to both?

Major BARNSTON: I have been asked to reply. There is no doubt that the non-cultivation of the land in question has had the effect described. The Government are not prepared, however, to introduce legislation of the nature suggested.

Mr. DUNCAN: 89.
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that 1,400 acres of land in the parishes of Barton Stacey and Wonston, in Hampshire, have during the past two years gone out of cultivation; that last year his Department allowed the Hampshire County Council to cut the weeds on this land at a cost of £214 6s.; that the money so spent has not yet been paid by this landowner; that the weeds have again become a real danger to the surrounding farms; and will he state what action he proposes to take in this matter?

Major BARNSTON: I have been asked to reply. The facts are as stated. The matter is in the hands of the county agricultural committee, by whom notices are being served on the occupier of the land requiring him to destroy the weeds. The committee are also taking steps to recover the money spent last year.

LILA MILL COMPANY, SHAW.

Sir WILFRED SUGDEN: 78.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he can state when he hopes to pass the answer to the War Compensation Court on the claim of the Lila Mill Company, Shaw, and also other companies; if he is aware that such Court is willing to adjudicate upon such claims; and that the delay is causing extreme hardship in the districts where the mills are situate?

Captain KING (Lord of the Treasury): The claims made in. these cases were of such a nature as to call for considerable and detailed investigation, which is now nearly complete. It is hoped that the cases will be heard soon after the Court re-assembles.

Oral Answers to Questions — POST OFFICE.

SUPERANNUATION (MR. G. W. GARNEE).

Mr. W. GREENWOOD: 83.
asked the Postmaster-General if he is aware that Mr. G. W. Garner, of 4, Bombay Road, Edgeley Fold, Stockport, is suffering a diminution in his superannuation owing to a Departmental delay in his retirement being authorised; and, as this delay was entirely the fault of the Department and not of Mr. Garner, will he take steps to ensure that the matter is put in order and the retirement authorised as from 13th February, 1922?

Captain KING: rose to reply on behalf of the Postmaster- General.

Captain W. BENN: On a point of Order. May I draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the practice—which has become a practice—of the Postmaster-General not to attend in his place to answer questions? May I ask whether there is any way in which you or the House can bring him to attend to this important part of his duties?

Mr. MOSLEY: Can the Press Gallery be searched for the Postmaster-General?

Captain KING: May I point out to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that the Postmaster-General is always in his place on Tuesdays—his regular day? May I also remind him of the fact that the Postmaster-General, being a Cabinet Minister, has many additional duties, besides those covered by his predecessor, and also that he has no Assistant Postmaster-General, as his predecessor had?

Captain BENN: On a point of Order. May I ask you, Sir, whether you concur in the view of the Under-Secretary that Ministers are bound to attend here on only one specified day in the week?

Mr. SPEAKER: I do not take that view.

Captain KING: My right hon. Friend has already explained the circumstances of the case by letter to the hon. Member. This officer was not certified by the chief medical officer to be permanently incapacitated until the 23rd February, 1922, and it is not possible to bring him within the scope of the former Regulations which were withdrawn on the 20th of that month.

Mr. GREENWOOD: Is it not a fact that it was absolutely through the delay of the Department that this was not certified, and that it was through no fault whatever of this man?

Captain KING: I did not gather that from the answer, but I will ask my right hon. Friend.

SORTERSHIPS (EXAMINATION).

Mr. ROBERT MORRISON: 84.
asked the Postmaster-General what was the actual cost to his Department of the recent examination when, in order to fill five vacancies for sorterships, 1,600 candidates were invited to sit at a fee of 10s. each?

Captain KING: The limited competition held in March last for appointments as sorter in London and sorting clerk and telegraphist (postal) in the provinces was, in normal course, conducted by the Civil Service Commissioners without direct cost to the Post Office. Some expense, which I am unable to estimate, would be incurred by the Post Office in cases where it was necessary to provide for the candidates' normal duties during their absence at the examination. The total number of
candidates who sat for the competition in London was 902. A nominal number of appointments as sorter, namely, five for each of the two London sections of the Competition, was offered as the ultimate requirements of the work are uncertain; but the competition will be drawn upon for at least 12 months and it should not be assumed that the actual number of appointments will not be greater.

SALFORD.

Mr. TILLETT: 85.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he has personally considered the claims of the County Borough of Salford with reference to the addressing of letters; and is he aware that it has been suggested that all letters addressed to Salford shall first be sent to Salford, Lancashire, a county borough of a quarter of a million inhabitants, and not to the small villages bearing a similar name?

Captain KING: My right hon. Friend has received representations from the Salford Town Council on this question, and has given instructions that letters addressed simply "Salford" are to be sent to Salford, Manchester, unless posted in the immediate neighbourhood of one of the other Salfords. These instructions merely confirm the existing practice.

Mr. W. GREENWOOD: Did the hon. and gallant Gentleman say Salford, Manchester, or Salford, Lancashire?

Captain KING: Salford, Manchester.

Sir H. BRITTAIN: How many Salfords are there?

Oral Answers to Questions — COAL INDUSTRY.

OIL-BEARING COAL (SCOTLAND).

Mr. HARDIE: 91.
asked the Secretary for Mines whether, from the investigations made during the War by the Government in regard to non-bituminous oil-bearing coal in Scotland, the information is such that the Government would recommend the working of such coals for oil production?

The SECRETARY for MINES (Lieut. Colonel Lane-Fox): I have no information which would justify me in recommending the working of such coal for the purpose of oil production.

Mr. HARDIE: Arising out of that answer, may I ask if the Minister himself has read the information which was obtained during the War by investigation by his Department?

Lieut.-Colonel LANE-FOX: No, I have not.

Mr. HARDIE: May I ask if the hon. and gallant Gentleman will read it?

MINES (FLOODING).

Mr. HARDIE: 92.
asked the Secretary for Mines whether, in view of the recent pit flooding, he has issued a note to owners of mines to take special precautions when mining coal towards old workings in which water or gas may be present?

Lieut.-Colonel LANE-FOX: I do not think that a general circular to owners in every district on this subject is necessary But I am having careful inquiry made into the mining conditions in South Staffordshire with a view to considering what steps can be taken to guard against a recurrence of such accidents.

Mr. HARDIE: Is the Secretary for Mines not yet aware that when a thing like that happens, it is likely to happen again; and without waiting, and consulting and going through all kinds of formalities, will he not save life by sending out notices that these precautions must be taken?

Lieut.-Colonel LANE-FOX: Yes, Sir, I am considering taking steps as regards the districts where the question arises—

Mr. HARDIE: It should be in all districts.

HON. MEMBERS: Order‡

Lieut.-Colonel LANE-FOX: If the hon. Member does not wish to hear my answer I shall not give it. In the districts where this condition prevails, I am considering the sending out of circulars such as the hon. Member suggests.

CONSIGNMENTS SHORT.

Mr. JOHN DAVISON: 101.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received any complaints that merchants purchasing quantities of coal for abroad systematically find the consignments to be as much as 3 per cent. short, and are unable to get any redress from
the colliery owners, the coal exporters, the shipowners who provide the boat, the captain of the boat who is responsible for the safe delivery of the cargo, or the insurance company who have insured it; and whether steps can and will be taken to stop this practice of short consignments?

Lieut.-Colonel LANE-FOX: No, Sir; I have not received any complaints of this sort.

NEWFOUNDLAND POWER AND PAPER COMPANY, LIMITED.

The following Questions stood on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for the Richmond Division:

Mr. BECKER: 93 and 96.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department (1) if his attention has been called to the capital of the Newfoundland Power and Paper Company, Limited, which is stated to be 21,000,000 dollars, all of which has been issued; what amount has been issued for cash; what other consideration, if any, has passed to make up the balance of this capital; has any money been paid to promoters or has any provision been made in the new company for such payments; has the Newfoundland portion of the loan been underwritten by responsible persons; who will benefit when the debenture stock is paid off; if this issue is not successfully floated, whether the Government will withdraw their guarantee;
(2) if the issue of 4½ per cent. A mortgage debenture stock of the Newfoundland Power and Paper Company, Limited, received his sanction; can he state what are the past trading results of this company; will he state, as this is a Government guaranteed stock, who are the directors of this company; has any business been conducted since 1915; and, if so, with what results?

Mr. BECKER: I have been asked to postpone questions 93 and 96 until to-morrow. While doing so, would I be in order in asking if the failure of the issue of this company has anything to do with the fall of the administration of Sir Richard Squires in Newfoundland?

Mr. SPEAKER: I would prefer to see that question on the Paper.

EMPIRE SETTLEMENT.

Sir WILLIAM COTTS: 94.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what has been the total amount of State-aided emigration from Great Britain in 1923 up to the most recent date possible?

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): The total number of persons who have received State aid for the purposes of emigration during the six months ended the 30th June last is 18,823.

Sir W. COTTS: 95.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what was the total expenditure under the Empire Settlement Act during the past financial year and how much it is proposed to expend during the current year?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: The actual expenditure in the financial year 1922–23 was £35,463 15s. 8d., and, as shown in the Estimates (Class V, 3), the anticipated expenditure for the current financial year is £1,159,100. The Empire Settlement Act was not passed until the 31st May, 1922, and some time necessarily elapsed before schemes under the Act could be brought into operation.

Mr. MACPHERSON: Has any report yet been received from the Empire settlement delegation with regard to the progress of settlement?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: From the delegation which went to Australia?

Mr. MACPHERSON: Yes.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Several letters have been received in the matter, but I have not as yet received what would be called a formal report.

Mr. MACPHERSON: Will the hon. Gentleman consult with the Prime Minister as to the advisability of publishing these reports, in view of the disquieting rumours—many of them unfounded—which prevail at present in this country?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Certainly, that will be taken into consideration. We shall publish as much information as we can when we can.

DEATH SENTENCE (ALEXANDER CAMPBELL MASON).

Mr. KIRKWOOD: 105.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to the new facts which are coming to light regarding the case of Alexander Campbell Mason, now under sentence of death for the murder of a London taxi-cab driver; if he is aware that Mason received a letter inviting him to come to London for a particular job; that that letter was not produced at the trial but, on the contrary, the sender of the letter was a witness against Mason, and gave evidence which is in some vital respects contradictory to the terms of the letter; and if, under these circumstances, he will advise a postponement of sentence and a further inquiry into the facts of this case?

The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Bridge-man): The prisoner has applied to the Court of Criminal Appeal for leave to appeal against his conviction, and I must, therefore, decline to discuss the case.

CANALS, LONDON (DROWNING CASES).

Mr. LANSBURY: 106.
asked the Home Secretary how many children and young persons have been drowned in the Duckets and Regents Canals during the months of May, June, and July this year, especially in those parts of the canals which pass through the parishes of Hackney, Bow, Bromley, and Poplar; and whether it is the intention of the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis to take steps to make better provision for the prevention of loss of life by drowning?

Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I am informed by the Commissioner of Police that four boys have lost their lives by drowning in the months in question. The canals, being private property, are not patrolled by the police. It is no doubt a matter of great difficulty to prevent children trespassing on the canal company's property, but it is a matter for the company to take any measures that are reasonably practicable for that purpose.

Mr. LANSBURY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many places the fences have broken down, leaving
spaces through which children can get, and that there is very great indignation in the district because of the facility with which children can trespass; and will he consider getting power for the police to deal with the matter? This is a very old story.

Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I know it has been a grievance for many years, and I regret it has not been possible to get anything done. I do not know if I have any power in the matter, but I will look into it.

Mr. LANSBURY: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the necessity of bringing in a short Bill giving him the powers required to deal with the matter, as it is agreed that at present he has not the powers and that he should have them. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech‡"] It is all very well, but little children lose their lives in this way. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these deaths by drowning have been going on for years; and, surely, all hon. Members will want to ensure the protection of children?

Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I am quite aware that this is a very old-standing grievance. I have known of it myself for years and years. I will certainly consider what can be done.

GERMAN REPARATIONS (RECOVERY) ACT.

Mr. F. GRAY: 107.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can inform the House of the amount received by the Revenue under the German Reparations (Recovery) Act, 1921, to date, and the proportion of this represented by penal and other duty paid by the British importer or his customers without any recovery from Germany?

The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks): The total amount collected by the Commissioners of Customs and Excise under the provisions of the German Reparation (Recovery) Act up to the 30th June last inclusive was £13,264,282. As regards the second part of the question, no information is available, but my right hon. Friend is not aware of any reason why the payments made by the British importer should not be recovered by deduction from the price paid to the German supplier in accordance with the pro-
cedure contemplated by the Act, and I have no ground for supposing that this procedure is not being generally followed.

Mr. GRAY: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that where the invoice price is more than 74 per cent. of the cost the British importer is called upon to pay 35 per cent., because he does not recover from Germany?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: As I say, I think he can recover, but if the hon. Member will send me details of any case he has in mind, I will look into them.

GOLD (UNITED STATES).

Mr. WISE: 108.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the percentage of the gold of the world held toy the United States of America?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: From the available statistics (which cannot be re garded as anything more than approximate) it appears that about 45 per cent. of the world's monetary stock of gold is held in the United States.

EXCESS PROFITS DUTY.

Mr. WISE: 109.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of Excess Profits Duty collected since 1st April and the amount claimed since 1st April?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The total receipt of Excess Profits Duty (including Munitions Levy) in Great Britain and Northern Ireland during the period from 1st April to 14th July, 1923, was about £8,870,000. Repayments made during the same period amounted to £7,940,000.

Mr. H. H. SPENCER: Does not the question relate, not to the amount repaid, but to the amount the repayment of which has been claimed?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I have given the amount repaid, but I am not quite sure as to the amount claimed.

Mr. SPENCER: Is it not a very different thing, claiming money back and getting it back?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: It is.

CANADA (BRITISH HARVESTERS).

Mr. MUIR: 113.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that employment is being offered by the Canadian Government to 52,000 men for harvest work; that 30 days' work is guaranteed at 16s. per day, with free board and lodging; that a reduced fare of £12 to Canada is being offered toy steamship companies, but that the men will have to pay the full fare coming home; and, seeing that their earnings in 30 days will not be sufficient to pay their fares out and back, will he make representations to have the guaranteed period increased to two months?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I have seen the announcement referred to The guarantee to work for 30 days is one which is given to the shipping companies toy intending harvest workers in order to obtain the reduced fare which is approximately £16 return. Harvest operations in Canada usually last from two to three months. In previous years most of the men required have been obtained from Eastern Canada and the States; it is not expected therefore that more than a few hundred will proceed from this country. I may say that notice of this question has been sent to the Canadian immigration authorities here.

SMYRNA-AIDIN RAILWAY.

Mr. GRATTAN DOYLE: 4.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether there is any prospect of securing payment by the Greek Government of the sums owing by them to the Smyrna-Aidin Railway for services rendered during the Greek occupation of Asia Minor; and what steps His Majesty's Government are now taking in the matter?

Mr. McNEILL: Yes, Sir. The British Charge d' Affaires at Athens was informed at the end of May last by the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs of its endeavours to secure at an early date a settlement of the claim of the Smyrna-Aidin Railway Company for services rendered during the Greek occupation of Asia Minor. A letter to this effect was sent to the company on the 18th ultimo.

Mr. DOYLE: 5.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether
he is aware that the Greeks committed serious damage to the Smyrna-Aidin Railway during their occupation and evacuation of Asia Minor; and whether arrangements have been made during the Conference at Lausanne for the payment of due compensation to the Smyrna-Aidin Railway for all damage committed by the Greeks?

Mr. McNEILL: It is understood that a certain amount of damage was caused to the Smyrna-Aidin Railway during the Greek occupation and evacuation of Asia Minor. A draft Agreement between Greece on the one hand and Great Britain, France, and Italy on the other has been under consideration at Lausanne, providing inter alia for the payment by the Greek Government of compensation for damages affecting Allied interests, and resulting from acts of the Greek armies or administrations subsequent to 1st June, 1921, in zones other than the firing line.

MARKET TOLLS.

Brigadier-General SPEARS: 61.
asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the remarks of Lord Linlithgow's Committee as to market tolls; and what action, if any, he intends taking in the matter?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am in communication with the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries on this matter.

ENEMY DEBTS (BRITISH CLEARING HOUSE).

Sir CYRIL COBB: 98.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in order to reduce the expenses falling upon British creditors, he will reduce, as from 2nd August next, the staff of the British Clearing House for Enemy Debts, Cornwall House, by 10 per cent. and again by 10 per cent. in November next, or, failing this, will he appoint a Committee from the Establishment Department of the Treasury to examine the staffing and methods at Cornwall House?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Viscount Wolmer): I doubt whether the first proposal of my hon. Friend would have the effect desired. He will no doubt realise
that the Clearing Office have a definite task to accomplish, and that the most economical course is to get through that task as promptly as possible, rather than to prolong it by undue depletions of staff. As to the second proposal, the staffing and organisation of the Clearing Office are already constantly under review by the Establishment Departments of the Treasury and the Board of Trade.

AIR SERVICE, LONDON AND PRAGUE.

Mr. TILLETT: 102.
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is acquainted with the proposed air service between London and Prague which is to be instituted by the Instone Line; and whether he intends to take steps to arrange for a representative of the Ministry to accompany the plane on its first journey and report upon the same in the interest of aviation generally and to help in the consideration of what form of assistance shall be rendered by the State to ventures of this character?

Major BARNSTON (for Sir Samuel Hoare): As regards the first part of the question, preliminary negotiations are now in progress with the Czechslovak authorities for the extension of the London-Cologne air service to Prague.
As regards the second part, the Director of Civil Aviation undertook a flight to Prague on the 13th October last in order to acquaint himself with the route and to discuss with the Czechslovak authorities the form of assistance to be rendered by the respective States to such an undertaking. All possible assistance to further the establishment of the service will be afforded by the Air Ministry.

Sir H. BRITTA1N: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman Say in how many hours it is proposed to make this journey?

Major BARNSTON: No, Sir; I regret I cannot say that without notice.

TEMPORARY PENSIONS.

Mr. WALSH: 104.
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware of the large number of cases of men in receipt of temporary pensions consequent upon a
disability percentage varying from 30 to 20 per cent., who have had by final award their disablement percentage reduced to a percentage from 19 to 15 per cent.; whether he is aware that such award has the effect of at once reducing the amount of pension and later of stopping it altogether; whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction created by such decisions; and whether in such cases, where the border line of disablement percentage is purely a question of opinion and not of fact, he will cause specific data, upon which the decision is based, to be supplied to the recipient before any reduction is made in the amount of pension?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of PENSIONS (Captain Craig): The rate of disablement is in all cases the result of the judgment of the medical board as formed upon the clinical facts and circumstances of the case before them. In a case where a medical board consider that the degree of disablement involved by a minor disability is such as to justify, not a continuing pension but a gratuity or an allowance for a terminable period, the man concerned has in all cases the right of appeal to one of the independent Appeal Tribunals which deal with assessment. If he exercises his right he is furnished before the hearing of the case with a full précis of his medical history as known to the Ministry, including clinical details of the case as seen by the several medical boards which have from time to time examined him, and as the result of which the assessment arrived at in each case has been given. It is also open to the man to bring before the Appeal Tribunal such other evidence as he may desire.

JOINT INDUSTKIAL COUNCILS.

Mr. JOHN DAVISON: 33.
asked the Minister of Labour whether, seeing that it is the policy of his Department to encourage the establishment of Joint Industrial Councils and to help to maintain those already formed, he will make representations to the Hammersmith Borough Council with a view to inducing that body to refrain from severing its connection with the National Industrial Council for the electrical supply industry?

Sir M. BARLOW: It is the policy of my Department to encourage the establishment of Joint Industrial Councils in suitable cases and to help to maintain those already formed. The councils are, of course, voluntary bodies, and I have no authority to press particular employers to become or to remain members.

POST OFFICE AND NEWSPAPER PRESS.

The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir Laming Worthington-Evans): Mr. Speaker, with your leave, and if the. House will allow me, I want to take the earliest opportunity of making a statement to the House.
My attention has been called to certain paragraphs containing vulgar and stupid personal puffs, which were sent to the Press Gallery of the House of Commons yesterday. I find, on inquiry, that they were written and sent by an officer of the Post Office. They were sent without my knowledge or authority. I never saw them until I noticed them in the newspapers this morning.
I authorised the sending of copies of my Estimates speech to the Press, in the usual way, but nothing else. I am taking steps to prevent any recurrence, and nothing will be sent out in future from the General Post Office to the Press, except that which is authenticated by the signature of the Secretary or a responsible official.

Mr. LANSBURY: Does not the Prime Minister consider that the time has arrived when Publicity Departments within the various Departments of the State should be abolished? They were a war-time proposal.

The PRIME MINISTER: It is not a question of publicity here.

Mr. LANSBURY: But is the right hon Gentleman aware that all the Pressmen in the Gallery, or at least half-a-dozen of them whom I met last night, considered that that did come from what is known as the Publicity Department in the Post Office? They came to me about that statement.

Mr. PRINGLE: I desire to give notice that I will raise this matter, together
with the question of other Publicity Departments, on the Consolidated Fund Bill.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY).

Motion made, and Question proposed,
That this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, Supplementary Estimates for New Services may be considered in Committee of Supply, and that Business other than Business of Supply may be taken before Eleven o'clock."—[The Prime Minister.]

Mr. PRINGLE: On a point of Order. There are certain New Services, upon which the Committee should have an opportunity of giving a Vote. Will the Vote for these New Services be given separately from the Classes?

Mr. SPEAKER: I cannot answer that on the spur of the moment. Perhaps the hon. Member will consult the Chairman of Ways and Means.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is it not a rule—I do not know that it is an Order of the House, but is it not an accepted principle—that New Services

shall in any case be debated in the House, or that an opportunity shall be given for a Debate? I think that has been ruled in the last Parliament, and may I ask your guidance on that question, Mr. Speaker?

Mr. SPEAKER: These Services were submitted for consideration last week. They have complied with the Standing Order in that respect.

Captain BENN: Can you give any guidance, Sir, as to the interpretation of the said Standing Order, which has more than once been put to the Chair? Do you consider that, when the Standing Order says that these New Services must be submitted to the Committee of Supply more than three days before the close of the Committee, that Standing Order is complied with when a Paper is published and no Debate whatever takes place?

Mr. SPEAKER: I remember that question being put for about 23 years, and I do not think I am in a position to change the answer which my predecessors have given to it.

Question put.

The House divided: Ayes, 225; Noes, 149.

Division No.309.]
AYES
3.50 p.m.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)
Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfrey,


Ainsworth, Captain Charles
Butt, Sir Alfred
Fawkes, Major F. H.


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Cadogan, Major Edward
Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.


Apsley, Lord
Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Flanagan, W.H.


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin
Cautley, Henry Strother
Ford, Patrick Johnston


Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Fredrick W.
Cayzer, Sir C.(Chester, City)
Forestier-Walker, L.


Astor, Viscountess
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn(Aston)
Fraser, Major Sir Keith


Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Furness, G. J.


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood)
Garland, C. S.


Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Chapman, Sir S.
Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.


Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague
Clarry, Reginald George
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Clayton, G. C.
Goff, Sir R. Park


Barnston, Major Harry
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Greenwood, William (Stockport)


Becker, Harry
Cohen, Major J. Brunel
Gretton, Colonel John


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.


Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Gwynne, Rupert S.


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Cope, Major William
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.


Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-
Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff. South)
Halstead, Major D.


Berry, Sir George
Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)
Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)


Betterton, Henry B.
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)


Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Harvey, Major S. E.


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Curzon, Captain Viscount
Hay Major T. W. (Norfolk, South),


Blundell, F. N.
Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Henn, Sir Sydney H.


Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.
Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Herbert, S. (Scarborough)


Brass, Captain W.
Doyle, N. Grattan
Hewett, Sir J. P.


Brassey, Sir Leonard
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Hiley, Sir Ernest


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Ednam, Viscount
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.


Brittain, Sir Harry
Elliot, Captain Walter E. (Lanark)
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)


Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)
Ellis, R. G.
Hood, Sir Joseph


Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Hopkins, John W. W.


Bruford, R.
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley'


Buckingham, Sir H.
Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.
Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.).


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)
Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.


Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew
Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.
Hughes, Collingwood


Butcher, Sir John George
Falcon, Captain Michael
Hume, G. H.


Hurd, Percy A.
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley


Hurst, Gerald B.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.


Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove, N.)
Nicholson, William G.(Petersfield)
Skelton, A. N.


Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Nield, Sir Herbert
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Norman, Major t. Hon. Sir Henry
Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)


Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul
Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John
Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.


Joynson-Hicks, Sir William
O'Neill, t. Hon. Hugh
Stanley, Lord


King, Capt. Henry Douglas
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)


Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Parker, Owen (Kettering)
Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth


Lamb, J. Q.
Pennefather, De Fonblanque
Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.


Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.
Penny, Frederick George
Stuart, Lord C. Crichton.


Lever, Sir Arthur L.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Phillip
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.


Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Peto, Basil E.
Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William


Lorden, John William
Pielou, D. P.
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Lorimer, H.D.
Pilditch, Sir Philip
Thomson, F. C.(Aberdeen, South)


Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Privet, F. J.
Titchfield, Marquess of


Lumley, L. R.
Raeburn, Sir William H.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Lyle-Samuel, Alexander
Raine, W.
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Rankin, Captain James Stuart
Wallace, Captain E.


McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Rawlinson, t. Hon. John Fredk. Peel
Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)


Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.
Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)


Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Rees, Sir Beddoe
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Margesson, H. D. R.
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.


Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Remnant, Sir James
White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)


Mercer, Colonel H.
Reynolds, W. G. W.
Wilson, Col. M. J.(Richmond)


Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Winterton, Earl


Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Robertson-Despencer, Major(Islgtn, W)
Wise, Frederick


Molloy, Major L. G. S.
Rogerson, Capt. J. E.
Wolmer, Viscount


Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Roundell, Colonel R. F.
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)


Morning, Captain Algernon H.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L..


Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney
Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward


Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)



Murchison, C. K.
Sanderson, Sir Frank B.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Celonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs.


Nall, Major Joseph
Sandon, Lord



Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.



NOES.


Adams, D.
Greenall, T.
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
March, S.


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'd'ne, E.)


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro'
Grundy, T. W.
Middleton, G.


Ammon, Charles George
Guthrie, Thomas Maule
Millar, J. D.


Asquith, t. Hon. Herbert Henry
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Morel, E. D.


Attlee, C. R.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Morris, Harold


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)


Barnes, A.
Hancock, John George
Mosley, Oswald


Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Harbord, Arthur
Muir, John W.


Batey, Joseph
Hardie, George D.
Murnin, H.


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)


Berkeley, Captain Reginald
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)
Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)


Bonwick, A.
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Newbold, J. T. W.


Brotherton, J.
Herriotts, J.
Oliver, George Harold


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Hill, A.
Paling, W.


Buckle, J.
Hinds, John
Parker, H. (Hanley)


Burgess, S.
Hirst, G. H.
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)


Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)
Hodge, t. Hon. John
Pattinson, R. (Grantham)


Buxton, Charles (Accrington)
Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)
Ponsonby, Arthur


Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)
Hogge, James Myles
Potts, John S.


Cape, Thomas
Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)
Pringle, W. M. R.


Chapple, W. A.
Irving, Dan
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)


Charleton, H. C.
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Ritson, J.


Clarke, Sir E. C.
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Roberts, C. H. (Derby)


Collison, Levi
Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)


Cowan, D. M.(Scottish Universities)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Royce, William Stapleton


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Salter. Dr. A.


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Scrymgeour, E


Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)
Sexton, James


Duncan, C.
Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Dunnico, H.
Kenyon, Barnet
Shinwell, Emanuel


Edmonds, G.
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George
Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Lassbury, George
Simpson, J. Hope


Emlyn-Jones, J. E.(Dorset, N.)
Lawson, John James
Smith, T. (Pontefract)


Falconer, J.
Leach, W.
Snowden, Philip


Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.
Lee, F.
Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)


Foot, Isaac
Linfield, F. C.
Spoor, B. G.


Gardiner, James
Lowth, T.
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Lunn, William
Sullivan, J.


Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)
M'Entee, V. L.
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Gray, Frank (Oxford)
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
Thorne. G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)




Tout, W. J.
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.
Wilson, C. H.(Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Trevelyan, C. P.
Weir, L. M.
Wintringham, Margaret


Twist, H.
Westwood, J.
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Wallhead, Richard C.
White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)
Wright, W.


Warne, G. H.
Whiteley, W.



Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Phillipps and Sir A. Marshall.


Watts Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly).



Webb, Sidney
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

NAVY AND ARMY CANTEENS.

Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence and Appendices, brought up, and read.

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

STANDING COMMITTEE D.

Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had added the following Member to Standing Committee D (during the consideration of the Summary Jurisdiction (Separation and Maintenance) Bill): Mrs. Wintringham.

Report to lie upon the Table.

MACCLESFIELD CORPORATION BILL [Lords].

Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee (Section A); Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

That they have agreed to, Intoxicating Liquor (Sale to Persons under Eighteen) Bill, without Amendment.

Agricultural Credits Bill, with Amendments.

Amendments to,

West Gloucestershire Water Bill [Lords],

Oldham and Rochdale Corporations Water Bill [Lords].

Plymouth Corporation Bill [Lords].

AGRICULTURAL CREDITS BILL.

Lords Amendments to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 205.]

MATRIMONIAL CAUSES (REGULATION OF REPORTS) BILL (CHANGED TO "JUDICIAL PROCEEDINGS (REGULATION OF REPORTS) BILL").

Reported, with Amendments [Title amended], from the Select Committee, with Special Report and Minutes of Evidence.

Report and Special Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 118.]

Bill, as amended, re-committed to a Committee of the Whole' House for Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 206.]

Orders of the Day — SUPPLY.

[19TH ALLOTTED DAY.]

Considered in Committee.

[Captain FITZROY in the Chair.]

Orders of the Day — CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES AND SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1923–24.

CLASS II.

COLONIAL OFFICE.

Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £101,329, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of His Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies."—[Note: £62,000 has been voted on account.']

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): The introduction of the Colonial Estimates is rightly regarded as the one opportunity in the year for reviewing the administration during the preceding year of the non-self-governing portions of the Empire for the carrying on of which the Colonial Office is responsible to this Parliament. My task is not an easy one, owing to the enormous range of subjects on which I feel it my duty to touch. The outstanding questions of recent days, of course, have been Rhodesia and Kenya, but, in view of the many questions affecting the different portions of the non-self-governing Empire, I propose to deal with the items in geographical order commencing with the West Indies, and followed by West Africa, South Africa, East Africa, Ceylon, the Eastern Colonies, the Middle East, Ireland, and the Imperial Economic Conference. [An HON. MEMBER: "And Palestine?"] The Middle East included Palestine.
With regard to the West Indies, I would like, first, to welcome the appointment at long last of a Parliamentary Committee of this House and the other House to take an interest in our oldest and most historic colonies. When I was out with my right hon. Friend, who is now President of the Board of Education
(Mr. Edward Wood), we learned that these ancient colonies, which we govern by officials and other representatives, had felt from time to time that their interests for which we are responsible did not receive the attention that they should receive from us. That Committee, I am sure, will be useful. During the past year the necessary steps have been taken to carry out the recommendations of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Education as the result of our tour with regard to constitutional reform, and we are now ready for the final issue of Letters Patent, etc., in connection with new Constitutions for Grenada, St. Lucia, St. Vincent, Trinidad, and Jamaica. The Dominica discussions are still proceeding. Though it was not recommended in the Report, we subsequently decided to introduce an elected element and a franchise for the first time in the island of Dominica.
During the past year there has also been issued the Report of the Currency Committee, of which I was Chairman. If the West Indian Colonies concur in our proposal and the Treasury here can absorb in the ordinary currency of this country the Imperial silver now in use in the West Indies, it will, if the West Indian Colonies agree among themselves, be possible for them to have their own currency system suited to their traditions and needs, and that currency may give them the nucleus of a fund which may be used for common purposes. The whole thing will depend upon whether Jamaica can fall into line with the Eastern Antilles. With regard to the ever fresh question of the possibility of anything in the nature of federation in the West Indies, it is perfectly clear that the tentative proposals made by my right hon. Friend met with considerable local difficulties, and anything in the direction of progress in that much desired direction must be a plant of slow growth. Though it is most desirable that the public services—the medical service, the police service, and such like—if it can be brought about, should be uniform, that can only be done if we can get the various islands, and especially the islands which can actually see one another across the Straits, to come together and to agree to some tentative form of federation.
The next important item to which I should like to refer is the opening of
what was called the West Indian Agricultural College at Trinidad. That agricultural college has now started work, and we have already decided that it should not serve the needs of the West Indian Colonies alone, but that it should become the central tropical agricultural college for the whole of our tropical Empire. We propose to change its name to the Imperial College of Tropical Agriculture. The college is not a parochial concern merely controlled by the local Government of Trinidad. It has on its board perhaps the greatest of our British tropical authorities. It v.' run on the lines of private enterprise with the blessing and financial assistance of the Imperial and Colonial Governments. We propose to change its name, and its aim is going to be to provide for the needs of all tropical dependencies and to become the chief centre of agricultural research and for the training of staff.
I want to say one word about communications. Anybody interested in the West Indies always comes back to shipping and cable communications. There is perhaps a good deal of complaint in the West Indies on that vexed question. Of course, it is very largely a matter of money. We are going on with the new cable. The West Indies now are 'connected with Canada and the United Kingdom by the Halifax-Bermuda cable and the Bermuda-Turks Island-Jamaica cable. This is called the Direct West India Company. It is an all-British cable:. Beyond Jamaica the only communication with the East and West Indian Colonies is by the West India and Panama Telegraph Company. The cables have to go through to Bermuda, down to Jamaica, get on to the cable of the new company and come back eastward again and go down the Lesser Antilles to British Guiana. The cables of the West India and Panama Company are very old, breaks have been frequent, and communications have been totally held up for months at a stretch. We have had a good deal of dissatisfaction in the Colonies and demands for improvement. The financial position of the company is not a good one, and at present the Government subsidy of £26,300 a year provided by the United Kingdom and Canada and the West Indian Colonies alone stands between it and a very serious position.
I am afraid that there is very little prospect of it being able to raise the necessary new capital for improvement. But the real drawback to this system is that the cable between England and Canada via Jamaica and Trinidad, the Eastern Antilles, and British Guiana goes through foreign territory and can be tapped there. It is desired by everybody who has gone into this question that we should have an all-British cable service to our Eastern Antilles.
There is another thing. The West India and Panama Company are tied up with the Cuba Submarine Company, and the Cuba Submarine Company have an agreement which cannot be upset, whereby they virtually take a toll from the West Indies in regard to communications with the West Indies on this line. They can either compel the West India and Panama Company to send the messages over the Cuba Company's cable or to pay the Cuba Company the sum which they would have received if the messages had been so sent. His Majesty's Government have been legally advised that they cannot acquire the West India and Panama Company without acquiring these obligations, which is clearly undesirable. In the circumstances, the better course is thought to be the provision of an entirely new cable. Consequently, it is proposed to run a new cable down from Turks Island, where it will connect with the direct West India Company's cable, to Barbados, from Barbados to Trinidad, and from Trinidad to Jamaica. That would provide a quick reliable service, entirely British. The maximum net annual cost would be less by about £6,000 than the present subsidy to the West India and Panama Company. It would be free of the tie-up with the Cuba Submarine Company, and, therefore, when the contract with the West India and Panama Com-comes to an end, as it does in September, 1924, we hope by then that we shall have a new cable in working order and shall be able to take over the Eastern Services.

Sir COURTENAY WARNER: What is to be the cost of the new cable?:

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I cannot give the exact figure at present. Naturally, negotiations are proceeding with cable companies, but, as I say, the estimated subsidy which will be required will be sub-
stantially less than those we are now paying the West India and Panama Company.

Sir FREDERICK BANBURY: Does that mean that the Government are going to use the taxpayers' money to injure a private company?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: The taxpayers' money is now being used for this company, which is tied up with this obligation. It is a service which goes through foreign territory. For all those reasons, it has been decided by the British Government to have an all British cable.
I now pass to West Africa. It is my Noble Friend's intention, if Parliamentary exigencies allow, that I should undertake this winter, in Nigeria, the Gold Coast, and Sierre Leone a similar Colonial mission to that which was taken by my predecessor, the object being to bring the Colonial Office and one or two officials of the Department into touch with the men on the spot, to see what is being done, to receive representations, and to report to the Secretary of State generally upon the various problems that arise in the West African Colonies. We do believe that it is of vast importance, not only that there should be visits to the Dominions from representatives of this Parliament, but that these dependent Colonies should from time to time receive visits from, and should be brought into closer touch with, the Parliamentary chiefs for the time being.
Nigeria, after all, is our greatest dependency of the non-self-governing portions of the Empire. In point of population, it has become the third constituent member of the Empire. India is first, with its many hundred millions, this island comes next, and Nigeria is third. In West Africa we have seen in the last 20 or 30 years the most remarkable advance in prosperity and in development. I would like, in this connection, to call to mind the romance of the Gold Coast. Less than 40 years ago there was no cocoa in the Gold Coast. In 1920 £10,000,000 worth of cocoa, produced entirely by natives, was exported, mainly to this country. The progress made in the economic capacity of the African natives, under the wise administration which has marked the West
African Colonies, has been really remarkable. Generally, I believe that that is the first step in their progress to civilisation. The first step is the economic development of the native as a producer on his own account. West Africa shows what remarkable results have been achieved, for the native becomes a valuable producer, and produces the raw material which the whole world wants. When that economic foundation has been laid, then education, sanitation, and all other advances can follow. The difficulties the great majority of the West African Colonies suffer under have been the most violent oscillations, commercial, trade, and otherwise, of recent years. During the War, when communications were difficult, exports fell to a very low figure. Then came a tremendous boom in raw materials—I am speaking of the period after the War—then came again the unprecedented slump. Consequently, the budgeting for the West African Colonies has been a matter of no little anxiety both to the Colonial Office and the local Governments in their respective centres.
Let me give some figures. In 1918 the exports from the Gold Coast were valued at £2,600,000; in 1920, £12,350,000; in 1921, at £7,000,000. Such world oscillations are bound to be reflected in the working of the Administration. They have, however, come through their difficult period, and I am happy to report that the Gold Coast is flourishing, that Nigeria has weathered the storm and has pulled through with a balance on the right side. On the top of that difficulty came the importation of spirits. Before the War a very large proportion of the revenue of the West African Colonies was derived from the spirit duty. In the pre-War period, 1913, it was over £1,000,000 on the spirit duty. Wisely, after the War, the Powers decided that the time had come to stop that trade in spirits. It meant very serious financial loss in revenue, which was £1,038,000. That in 1919 was turned to £74,000, and in 1921 to £206,000. This re-arrangement meant wiping out a considerable proportion of the revenue. The country is not the sort of place where you can impose or collect an Income Tax, and we were thrown back upon the import duty. The import duties are as high as they possibly can be. They cannot be increased. There-
fore it has been necessary to put on an export duty. I know there is a feeling amongst the West African people that these duties ought to go. They will go when the revenue can be made good—obviously not before. Every effort is being made reasonably to cut down the ordinary expenditure on administration, and every effort will be made in that direction. Obviously, in countries like these, developments must proceed. They want railways, roads, and communications of all kinds. You cannot starve your economic or education departments without danger. Consequently the position is rather difficult. I may say, in connection with the spirit duties, that since I have been at the Colonial Office we have had some trouble as to the exact definition of what are trade spirits and what are not. We have taken the decision of allowing high grade gins to go in, but only high grade and specified gins.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: In fact which Europeans want?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: It virtually comes to that. They will not be prohibited as trade spirits. I have already referred to the question of the railways. The Gold Coast Government have decided, with the sanction of my Noble Friend, to spend certain of its surplus revenue in building new railways through the cocoa area of the Central Provinces. We are considering whether or not the time has come when private enterprise can participate in the improvement of the transport facilities in the interior of Africa. Hitherto private enterprise has been shy to take up this difficult work, and it has fallen to the Colonial Office to make the initial moves in practically every case. In opening up a new country, especially like that of tropical Africa, you do not get an early return, but my Noble Friend has set up a Private Enterprise Committee, with very wide terms of reference, and he hopes that business men and men of enterprise will come forward with suggestions to help in this matter. The terms of reference are:
To consider whether, and if so what, measures could be taken to encourage private enterprise in the development of British Dependencies in East and West tropical Africa, with special reference to existing and projected schemes of transport; and to report to the Secretary of State for the Colonies.
It is proposed that the right hon. the Earl of Ronaldshay, late Governor of Bengal, shall be chairman; and the other Members who have accepted are my hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. J. C. C. Davidson, M.P.), the hon. Member for the Exchange Division of Manchester (Sir E. Stockton), Sir James Stevenson, Commercial Adviser to the Colonial Office, Mr. C. E. Gunther, and Sir William Mercer. Sir William Ackworth, K.C.S.I., and the right hon. Sir Frederick Lugard, formerly Governor of Nigeria, and Mr. E. R. Peacock have been invited and have not yet replied. I hope the result of their exploration into this matter may be fruitful of result. Much remains to be done in linking up of railways and opening up of the country. Further, in connection with West Africa I have to announce that recently we have had an important conference at the Colonial Office consisting of the African Governors and Colonial Secretaries home on leave—and there have been a good many—together with our educational advisers, as to the future of native education in Africa. We want to avoid making mistakes at this critical stage. We want to explore the experience of the world as to what is the Best and most helpful form and type of education that we can give to the Africans, for the purpose of giving light to New Africa. With that view, we have formed a permanent Committee, and I hope shortly to get a permanent Secretary, to advise on this issue. We were led to this largely as the result of a most extraordinary interesting report issued by Dr. Jesse Jones, who has travelled, not only through the British Colonies, but through French Africa, the Belgian Congo, and the Portuguese Colonies. He has made a most helpful contribution to the subject of African education from the point of view of the native. It is hoped that Dr. Jones may pay a similar visit to the East African Colonies. This Committee consists of Sir Frederick Lugard as chairman, Mr. Oldham, who practically represents all the Protestant Missionary Societies, Sir Michael Sadleir, who has great knowledge of Indian education; the Bishop of Edmundsbury, who was formerly head master of Rugby, and Sir James Currie, director of the Gordon College at Khartoum, who has had ex-
perience in the Sudan, and at present is doing such valuable work in connection with the Empire Cotton Growing Movement. He knows that side as well as the education side. We hops that the Committee will be able to contribute very materially to the progress of the new educational movement taking place in Africa. I may say that the Governor of the Gold Coast is quite an enthusiast on this particular subject, as he has junior technical and trade classes, boy scouts, and all the rest of it. He has been very successful, and now he also, by the authority of the Secretary of State, has started the first secondary school that ever existed in British West Africa, and that is going forward in a very satisfactory fashion. I may say in this connection that a good deal of development work is being done by the Colonies themselves. It is a fact that in the last three years from November, 1919, to 23rd of March, the British Tropical African Colonies have raised on the London market on their own security no less than £25,000,000 for development work. That is a notable achievement. I hope they will be able to go ahead.
Passing from West Africa, I hope, as I have said, if Parliamentary exigencies allow, in the coming winter to visit West Africa. The outstanding problem, perhaps, with which I have had to deal personally since I went to the Colonial Office in November has been the winding-up, if I may say so, of the British South Africa Company as an administrative body. Everybody, I think, agrees that we cannot any longer justify the government of vast tracts like South and Central Africa by a company. No doubt but for the War considerable changes would have taken place in the regime, which the Colonial Office in 1914 extended for another 10 years. Since then there has been a round, a cheerless round, of litigation before the Privy Council, followed by Commissions, Committees, assessors, and the like. The last thing I was informed of at the Colonial Office was that the British South Africa Company had deposited a Petition of Right. I do not know exactly what a Petition of Right in this connection means, but I understand that it meant two years' litigation.
Obviously, the statesmanlike thing in this matter was to try and arrive at
an arrangement agreeable to the people of Southern Rhodesia, the British Treasury, and the representatives of the company, and to have some clear policy for the future. The question of Southern Rhodesia had been settled last November. They were given the option of a referendum to decide whether they would go into the Union of South Africa, or start courageously with self-government on their own. By a considerable majority they chose the latter course, and consequently it became an obligation of honour on the part of the Imperial Government to see that they had a chance of making good under the decision which the people of Rhodesia had come to, and which they had been invited to decide. We, therefore, decided that a responsible Government should be set up in Southern Rhodesia at the earliest possible date, and we decided that that date should be the 1st October this year.
I am glad to say that the new self-governing Colony—because that will be its status in future—has been fortunate in having secured as its first Governor a man who has had great experience in administrative work in England, Sir John Chancellor, and who has previously been the Governor of Mauritius and Trinidad. He leaves this country the first week in September to proclaim the new Constitution and to invite one of the Rhodesian leaders to become the first Prime Minister. His Majesty's Government wish that new Colony every success in the task that now lies before it. It has a fine tradition in connection with native administration and native relations. The task which lies before them of governing 34,000 settlers in a country which embraces a very large territory is no easy one. Our object in Northern Rhodesia was to set up a Government there north of the Zambesi as a separate Colony.
It was obviously desirable that if the Chartered Company's regime came to an end in Southern Rhodesia it should come to an end in Northern Rhodesia as well. To keep the whole administrative machinery of the company going was obviously not in the interests of Northern Rhodesia, and it would have been resented by the people there and was not welcome to the company, and so we had to endeavour to get the Petition of Right out of the way and further litigation and proposals for litigation. We had to look
at the thing as a whole and get an all-over settlement. We managed to get an all-over settlement and I understand that the shareholders of the British South Africa Company, at a meeting held yesterday, unanimously agreed to accept the offer of the Government.
It would not be right if I did not make quite clear what that involves. Roughly it involves the payment by the taxpayers of this country of a net sum of £1,500,000 to clear up the Rhodesian business, that is to say to clear up the debt we owe to our agents for what they have done during the past years. The sum of £2,300,000 is due back from the people of Southern Rhodesia, that is the new Government of Southern Rhodesia, to be paid on the 1st January in return for the public works and buildings and approximately 50,000,000 acres of un-alienated land, which under the Privy Council judgment would have been locked up in an extremely cumbersome form of administration as a possible and potential source whereby we could pay our debt to our agents.
Under the Privy Council judgment it has been decided that the British South Africa Company, who have been acting as agents for the Crown, were entitled to the repayment of their administrative deficits. I think it may be looked upon in that way. The British Government is now called upon to pay in one sum what it would have had to pay over a number of years by means of grants-in-aid all over Southern Rhodesia, but we do get certain assets. We get a new Government clothed with new responsibilities which we wish to see made a success with the machinery of the Government and the control of the land, and in Northern Rhodesia we get not only the public works and buildings to start our new Crown Colony Government there, but we also get back whatever rights the British South Africa Company had over the un-alienated land of North-Western Rhodesia. I regard it as being vital to any settlement that the new Government should get control of the policy which has been followed in regard to very large areas, and should be able forthwith, if need be, to set up native reserve commissions or anything of that kind.
We have not had sufficient time to make the plans, and therefore we could not bring the new Government of
Northern Rhodesia into operation on the same date as the new Government of Southern Rhodesia. The new Government of Northern Rhodesia will commence as a new colony on the 1st of April next year. I will not go into the whole of the details of the long discussions which I had to conduct with the company and with various people, or explain to the House how and why we arrived at particular figures and deductions, because that would take much too long. I know that the Chartered Company's shareholders say that we have been very hard on them, but we had to drive as hard a bargain as we could in the interests of the taxpayers, and it is a settlement which will clear out of the way all those litigious questions. We have bought the public works and buildings and the land, and we have paid our debt. The Chartered Company are entitled to the administrative debts. That is the central feature of the whole thing, because these debts have been incurred over a period of years during which the company have been acting as our agents.
Let me now say a word or two about the British South Africa Company. I do not think that Southern Rhodesia would be getting self-government to-day, or that we could have taken over and started any good administration in Northern Rhodesia had it not been for the work of the British South Africa Company, and for the fact that they raised from the public millions of money on which they have never received one penny of dividend, and have never made one penny of profit. For 30 years or more they have been carrying on as agents of the Crown a great Imperial work, and it would be most unjust to represent this company as having been a profiteering concern. The shares of the company obviously have not increased in value and remain stationary, which is rather a proof that the settlement arrived at is the right one. If we had given too much the shares would have gone up and if we had given too little they would have come down, but they have remained stationary, which to my mind is evidence that we have arrived at a reasonable settlement. The shares of the company are considerably below par and yet they have carried out this great work. I think it would be very wrong if the Minister in making a speech at the termination of this work did not pay his
tribute to the British South Africa Company for the work they have done during all those years. I would particularly like to pay a tribute to all the officers, especially the native commissioners who have been trained there, and have worked under an extremely progressive and good native administration.

Mr. ADAMS: The Under-Secretary says that we obtained control over the unalienated lands. Are there any in possession of native holders?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Very little of them. The Barotse reserve is a small corner of Northern Rhodesia, and the alienated lands there are not very large. The un-alienated lands in North Western Rhodesia are approximately 76,000,000 acres, and the number of natives on those lands is very small. One of the objects of obtaining control of that land is to demark adequately the reserves. In North Eastern Rhodesia the land is regarded as if it were native land, and at any rate we shall have a free hand in regard to it. In North Eastern Rhodesia the white population is extremely small, consisting of about 500 people. There are areas in which the people exist under purely tropical conditions.
Now I must pass to East Africa. With regard to Tanganyika Territory, there is a special Vote. It is a mandated territory which was formerly a German Colony, and the mere fact that propaganda is still going on in Germany makes it absolutely incumbent upon us to give that vast territory, which in area is larger than Nigeria, and contains a population just over 4,000,000, at least as good and complete an administration as was given by the Germans in that country before the War. We are responsible, not merely to Parliament, in respect of this territory, but I have to go on Tuesday next to Geneva to present the annual report for 1922 of that country which has been received from the Allied Associated Powers in trust.
The Germans surrendered their rights to the Allied Associated Powers as a whole. We have endeavoured to provide a good administration. I admit it is expensive, and the difficulties have been exceptional and quite enormous. The main central railway was terribly damaged during the War, and we have
had great difficulty in putting it in order again. I believe there is a great future for that country. I was there myself only for a short time in 1912, and I do believe that, with proper enterprise and the Government working hand in hand with a good Agricultural Department, there is a great future, particularly for cotton growing in parts of that vast area.
Let me come immediately to the controversial question of the Voi-Kahé or Voi-Taveta Railway. Let me at once in the presence of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir E. Hamilton) stand in a white sheet for being inaccurate, and for not knowing that the major portions of that railway lie on the Kenya side of the frontier rather than on the Tanganyika side, which I stated in answer to a supplementary question the other day. On what grounds did my Noble Friend arrive at the decision that we could not keep open or reconstruct the Voi-Kahé Railway?
The arguments which we had before us were these. In August, 1914, the situation as regards railways in that neigh bourhood was as follows: There were two parallel lines, one running from Tanga to Moshi on the German side and the other, the Uganda Railway, running from the Port of Mombasa inland to Nairobi and Lake Victoria. The former took the produce of the plantations situated in the Moshi district to the sea. During the War, in order to facilitate the movement of troops from Kenya, a military railway was laid down between the two points where the two lines were nearest together, that is to say, from Voi on the Uganda Railway to Kahé, not far from the Moshi terminus of the German railway. The construction of this military line was rushed through with great rapidity and with the minimum of engineering. Wooden bridges and other temporary structures were put up and considerations of curves and other matters regarded as essential to a permanent line were ignored, as were, of course, all commercial considerations. This link line was about 93 miles in length, and except for some 10 miles was entirely on the British or Kenya side of the boundary.
After the War the railway became practically derelict, and although very few trains were run on it it had become dangerous for traffic. The temporary structures were in a bad condition—an im-
portant bridge had recently been destroyed by a flood—and expenditure quite out of proportion to the traffic had to be incurred to keep the line open. This was an absolute waste of money, and it was agreed that if the link was to be retained very extensive reconditioning would be required, as well as the transfer of its junction from Kahé to Moshi. Estimates presented to my Noble Friend showed that the cost of these works would be £500,000. The question arose, Who was to pay? The suggestion was that this House ought to vote the money, but we could not come down and ask for a Supplementary Vote from this House for a railway to connect two railways which served two districts, one of them being the Uganda railway, which would have an increased volume of traffic and the other the Tanga railway. It was also estimated that the reconditioned line would be run at a net annual loss, at least for some years to come, of about £8,000. Without the link the planters in the Moshi district will have their outlet as before the War at Tanga, but they will not be in direct communication with the Uganda railway. I have here an extract from a letter by a planter which appeared in the Nairobi "Daily Standard" of 3rd May, in which the writer says that he would personally like the line to remain, but from the point of view of revenue "it is a hopeless proposition." As regards local traffic, he odserves:
There is absolutely nothing between Voi and Taveta to warrant even the upkeep of a road, much less a railway. In the number of times that the writer has travelled over this line he has never seen a single European passenger or a parcel picked up at intermediate stations. The whole area along the line is very sparsely populated and with the exception of two mission stations the whole area is practically uninhabited.
In face of that my Noble Friend had no option but to decide to retain the Tanga-Moshi line and not to retain this derelict military line.

Major-General Sir J. DAVIDSON: How much of the Tanga line is in Kenya?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I have said I was completely wrong in my statement on that point. The bulk of it is in Kenya. There is a great sparsity of population along its length. Naturally Kenya would rather spend its money on its own line than on the development of another line.
You cannot at any rate ask the British taxpayer to pay for this line. It is proposed shortly to issue another Kenya loan for the purpose of railway development, rolling stock, and the like, and I hope that this development may be helpful to the area through which the railway passes. After all the traffic at Tanga not long before the War was larger than that at Dar-es-Salaam, and the people at Tanga will strongly resent any action that condemns their port to stagnation in order to increase business at Mombasa.
Now let me announce that a Customs Federation has been effected between Kenya, Uganda and the Tanganyika Territory whereby the produce of any one of these Dependencies is admitted free of duty into either of the other Dependencies. The tariffs of the three Dependencies have also been assimilated.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: Does that mean that the heavy import duties now-imposed in Kenya are to be imposed on the other Dependencies?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: The tariffs will be more or less general. That is the only possible thing to do in three contiguous territories. Let me say in this connection I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Sir Sydney Henn) has succeeded in forming a Committee of merchants and other people interested in East African trade who will be able to confer from time to time with the Colonial Office, in the same way as the West African Chambers of Commerce have done for so long. For many years representatives of the Liverpool, Manchester and London Chambers of Commerce have come periodically with an agenda and discussed matters of interest and helpful to the Colony with the Parliamentary Under-Secretary I am quite sure that both my noble Friend and I will welcome anything on the same lines in connection with anything that will help forward the development and prosperity of the East African Dependency as well as the West African Dependency.
Let me come to Kenya. Both Kenya and Uganda have suffered from the recent trade slump, but they are now showing a considerable improvement. There is an improvement in Kenya, both in the acreage in European occupation under cultivation, and in native production. The Government are absolutely certain that the proper economic basis in
Kenya is that native production in the Reserve and European production in the White Island must go hand in hand and must be developed side by side. Joint co-operative effort and increased production by all races in Kenya are essential to the future welfare and prosperity of that country.
I have a word or two to say about the carefully considered wording on the White Paper. I want to make it clear that this is not a mere Departmental decision. It is the decision of His Majesty's Government as a whole taken by the Cabinet. It must not be looked upon merely as a compromise between views put forward by two rival delegations. It is nothing of the kind. A settlement by agreement between the delegations was clearly out of the question, and the Government decided that they must accept full responsibility to Parliament for giving their decision, for promulgating that decision, and for standing by it. They have done so. If it had been merely a local question, I have little doubt the matter could have been adjusted locally long ago, but the difficulties which have arisen in Kenya required a great deal more than mere local consideration. They affected not merely the relations between the India Office and the Colonial Office, not merely between the Government of India and the Government here in London, but they affected the Commonwealth as a whole, and, to a considerable extent, Africa as a whole. The British Commonwealth is an association of men of every race and of every colour scattered in every continent, based on a common loyalty to the Crown, not on any hierarchy of rights, but on a common spirit of service which transcends all narrow racial interests. After all, if European civilisation is menaced by the clash of mutually antagonistic nationalisms there is an even greater peril in the clash of races, and if there is one duty which the British Empire, far-flung as it is, has to civilisation as a whole it is the duty of reconciling such dangerous forces.
5.0 P.M.
In Kenya we have Europeans, Africans, Indians, and Arabs living together, and I feel that the only thing that can be said is that it is the common duty of all to subordinate the narrower conceptions of racial. consciousness to the higher ideal of work-
ing together for the Colony and for the Commonwealth as a whole. It is in this spirit and in this hope that the Imperial Government, who are responsible to this Parliament, and this Parliament alone, for the peaceful government and progress of Kenya, put forward its decisions of policy. It will be for the Colonial Office and the Colonial Governor to carry out in detail the policy laid down in this Memorandum. We are the trustees of many great African Dependencies, of which Kenya is one, and our duty is to do justice and right between the various races and interests, remembering, above all, that we are the trustees before the world for the African population. Our administration of this trust must stand eventually before the judgment seat of history, and on it we shall be judged as an Empire. I think I can say no more about this, except that I feel it my duty, as representing the Colonial Office, to say quite definitely that it is regretted that on certain material points it has not been possible to meet the wishes of the Government of India, whose views have received the fullest consideration of His Majesty's Government as a whole, at the instance of the Secretary of State for India, who put them forward quite fearlessly and clearly on behalf of the Government of India.

Colonel M. J. WILSON: Would the hon. Gentleman say whether he has received any communication from the settlers or Indians with regard to this White Paper?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I have not personally, but I understand that communications are being sent to my Noble Friend, and my Noble Friend is speaking on the subject in another place, and I daresay he will deal with that point. I must now say a word about Ceylon, on which, I think, several hon. Members are going to speak. We are proposing, and I hope in a few weeks' time we shall have agreed upon, the Ceylon reforms. Under the old Constitution, the Legislative Council contained 37 Members, of whom 14 were official and 23 unofficial. Under the present proposal, which is now under consideration, the Legislative Council will be increased to 48 members, including one additional seat for Colombo, which the Secretary of State recently granted. Of these 48 members, 22 will be elected by territorial constituencies, 11 will be communally elected, and three will be
nominated. The number of official members will be reduced to 12. In addition, the following important concessions will be made. All qualified persons, irrespective of race, will vote in the territorial constituencies; residential qualifications for members will be abolished; the Council will elect a Vice-President, who will preside on ordinary occasions in the Council, the Governor only presiding on special occasions. The one outstanding question at this moment is the question of the possible representation of the Tamil section of the population in Colombo and the Western Provinces. I have recently received a telegram on behalf of the Ceylon National Congress, and, as I understand, they will agree, and all other communities have agreed, to these reforms, and will co-operate in working them for the next five years, if this difficulty can be got over. At present, it is perfectly clear that there is a certain amount of feeling between the Tamil community and what are commonly called the low-country Singalese; and the stumbling-block is this special seat for the Tamils in Colombo. It is pointed out, out of a population of 1,200,000 in Colombo and the Western Provinces, the Tamils only number about 20,000, that is to say, less than the Mahommedans; and the offer, which has been communicated to the Governor for his views, is for an additional territorial seat in the Tamil area, or a communal Tamil seat for the whole Colony, either elected or nominated. Naturally one wants the concurrence of the Tamils to get peace between the various sections of the community in Ceylon, and these suggestions have been telegraphed out for the Governor to consider. In this connection, as I know it is going to be referred to by several hon. Members, I may say that I have to-day received a telegram from the Governor, stating that his speech at Jaffna, in the Tamil area, was misquoted, possibly intentionally, and that the garbled version, which has appeared in the Press,
bore little resemblance to what I actually said.
Those were his words.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: Did he say that a settlement has been come to?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I gather that that is all he said that it was garbled
and that the report was inaccurate. With regard to Malaya, I want to take this opportunity of expressing the thanks of the Colonial Office for the voluntary gift of the site at Singapore by the Colony of the Straits Settlements—not the Federated Malay States. It is a fitting complement to the very generous gift of the "Malaya" by the Federated Malay States. In Malaya, the tin position is bad, but the rubber position is better. The Stevenson rubber scheme is working well. Before leaving the subject of the Crown Colonies I should like to say one word about Fiji. The sugar industry, which is so important to Fiji, seemed at one time likely to collapse, but the subsequent improvement in prices and the recent arrangement made by the Governor with the leading producing company have removed apprehensions for the immediate future. The chief market for sugar is New Zealand, but for other products more scope is necessary, and, with the closing of the Australian market for bananas, attention is being turned to Canada, and a scheme is being discussed with the Dominion for an improved and specially equipped steamer service. One of the tropical products most in demand in Canada is pineapple, and facilities are being offered by the Government for the establishment of canning factories, and at the same time schemes for assisting planters to grow fruit are under consideration. There are also possibilities in cotton, and in May a cotton expert, with experience in India and Australia, was appointed to advise on cotton cultivation and ginning. The port facilities have been greatly improved in recent years, and the new wharf at Suva is said to be one of the finest in the Pacific. As will have been seen from the Press, we have just had a telegram from the Governor saying that the Legislative Council has passed a Resolution in favour of having on the Council two elected Indian members, and that matter will be taken up with the India Office, as well as other matters connected with Fiji, as soon as my Noble Friend and I have a little leisure for the purpose.

Captain BERKELEY: May I ask whether the Government have any intention of approaching the Australian Government with a view to obtaining the removal of the import tax on bananas?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: That is, obviously, a question for the Imperial Economic Conference, and it will be raised there. I shall be representing the Crown Colonies, and shall, have to feel my way before I commit myself to actually putting that suggestions forward, but I am collecting questions which the Crown Colonies desire to be put forward as between the Dominions and this country at the Conference, and I shall endeavour to be their particular godfather.
I have dealt with the Colonial Empire as a whole, which is the main subject of this Debate, and I now turn to the territories under A Mandates, which are, of course, not Colonies in any sense of the word, but for which the Colonial Office is at present responsible. For nearly five years it has been impossible to establish settled conditions in Iraq and Palestine, as we have been awaiting the peace with Turkey which was signed yesterday at Lausanne. By the Treaty of Lausanne, Turkish rights over Palestine and Iraq come to an end, subject to a friendly decision being reached between the British and Turkish Governments about the northern boundaries of the Mosul Vilayet. If agreement has not been reached within a period of nine months from the date on which the evacuation of Constantinople is completed, both parties have agreed to accept the arbitration of the League of Nations on this difficult and complicated question. Mean while, during the last three years, a steady policy of reduction of expenditure has been pursued by both the late and present Government. The total cost, in round numbers, of the Middle East in 1921–22 was £27,000,000; in 1922–23 it was £11,000,000; for this year it is estimated at £8,700,000, and it is hoped that very considerable further reductions will be possible during next year. Three battalions are leaving Iraq immediately, and the garrison of Palestine is also being reduced. With regard to Iraq, the policy outlined in this House by the Prime Minister, on the 3rd May, 1923, has been, on the whole, favourably received by both the moderate and the extremist parties. The general feeling in Iraq is that a genuine step has been made towards more complete independence. The result has been a decided strengthening in the feeling of national
responsibility. This has been shown by the determination of the Iraq Government to explore all possible means of increasing the Iraq Army, and thus lessening the need for British assistance, and also by their desire to proceed immediately with the deferred election for the Constituent Assembly. The election machinery is in full swing, and satisfactory progress is being made. The procedure, which is a legacy from the Turkish system, is somewhat cumbersome, but it is hoped that the Assembly may meet by the end of December.

Mr. ASQUITH: What does the hon. Gentleman mean by "full swing"? What is the procedure?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Candidates are being selected, and the various preliminary formalities—the primaries—are taking effect, election speeches are being made, and the like. The recent successful tour of King Feisal through the whole of Iraq from Mosul to Basra has brought him into personal contact with the leaders of all shades of local opinion, and has largely contributed to the present satisfactory situation. The subsidiary agreements arising out of the Iraq Treaty are now being negotiated, and this House will have an opportunity of debating them with the Treaty before ratification. The Colonial Office has also inherited from the Foreign Office the control of relations with certain of the independent rulers of Arabia. It has been decided that the policy of subsidising these rulers should be brought to an end forthwith, and it is not proposed that any charge on this account should fall upon Imperial revenues after the close of the present financial year. The relations of His Majesty's Government with the rulers in question have remained friendly, and I' have no special statement to make to the Committee about this part of the Middle East.

Colonel Sir CHARLES YATE: Does that apply to Ibn Saud?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Yes, that applies particularly to him.
I want now to say one word about Ireland. In the first place, it is obviously very undesirable that I should go into any controversial matter in regard to Ireland, especially as the general election is about to take place almost immediately in the Free State.

Mr. PETO: Is the hon. Gentleman going to refer again to Palestine after dealing with Ireland?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I really have nothing to add to the very explicit replies which I have given to questions on Palestine in this House, and to the very full statement made by my Noble Friend the Secretary of State in another place. As the Irish Elections are coming along almost immediately—the dissolution is expected to take place the week after next, I will only repeat what was said by the late Prime Minister, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Glasgow (Mr. Bonar Law), during the Debate last November on the Irish Free State Constitution Bill which ratified the Treaty. He then said:
It is a struggle for good relationship with this country and for peace in Ireland. I am quite sure that everyone in this House will agree with me that we on this side can do nothing to help, but might very well do a great deal to hinder, not only by criticism, but even by expressing our sympathy."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th November, 1928; col. 331, Vol. 159.]
I think, in view of the immediate election, that I can quote no higher authority for what I have just said in that connection. The Free State Government have with scrupulous good faith adhered to the articles of the Treaty, and, further than that, the improvement in the condition of Ireland has been very noticeable, particularly in the last two months. It is almost a miracle that the Free State Government, which had to take over with no troops, with no police, under new conditions, and amid grave disorder, have succeeded in winning through, but it has been at terrible cost to life and property. It is roughly estimated that the last civil war in Ireland, engineered by Mr. de Valera and Mr Erskine Childers, has involved approximately four times the destruction of the whole of the period before the Truce. I was told that in West Cork and in Kerry there is hardly a mansion house which has not been gutted and destroyed, and the destruction has been perfectly appalling, but at present the condition has enormously improved. There is at last a police force and there is now security. There has been a remarkable decrease in crime and juries are again functioning, but it would be idle for me to say we can have any guarantee
that there will not be fresh outbreaks. It is clear that there are implacable enemies of the settlement in Ireland who, not from any love of Ireland, but from hatred of this country, which they cannot get over, are endeavouring to destroy and force a military re-occupation of Ireland in order to destroy the settlement. We hope the Free State Government will succeed in putting down this formidable conspiracy, which still exists, and in maintaining order; and only by maintaining order, only by a firm Government, would it be possible to get for loyalists compensation for the destruction they have suffered. In these Southern areas that I am talking of it is not only the Loyalists. Everyone who supported the Free State Government has equally suffered with the Loyalists, and if any compensation is to be paid, obviously peace and a settled and stable Government recognising the Treaty is the only hope, otherwise there would be a burden upon the English taxpayer of £40,000,000 or £50,000,000. That we cannot contemplate. The Free State Government, although owing to the destruction of their railways and to their lack of machinery their revenue has not been good, have made substantial improvement in the last few weeks in payments on account of compensation, and I have every reason to hope that those payments will continue to be improved.
Finally, may I say a word about the Imperial Economic Conference, which will meet concurrently with the Imperial Conference on 1st October next? The President of the Board of Trade will preside and it will be attended by representatives of the five Dominions, of the Irish Free State, of India, and by myself on behalf of the Crown Colonies and Protectorates. No formal agenda has yet been fixed. A considerable range of subjects for discussion is certain, the main points coming up from the Dominions. The Prime Minister is at present in active consultation with the Prime Ministers of the Dominions regarding the final preparation of the list of questions for discussion. According to present arrangements the subjects which will be brought before the Conference may be summed up under the following heads: (1) Ways and means for the fuller development of the natural resources of the Dominions and Colonies. (2) Inter-Imperial commerce, shipping
and communications generally, including wireless and other details. (3) Co-ordinated action for the improvement of technical research. (4) The organisation of economic intelligence. (5) The unification of law or practice in the Empire in certain matters affecting trade development. (6) Oversea settlement and migration.

Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: Under which heading will come the question of modifications of Preference or increases of the same?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Obviously, under inter-Imperial commerce. It will be raised, I understand, by the Commonwealth of Australia.

Captain BENN: Will the hon. Gentleman give us some idea of the policy he will advocate?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: No, certainly not. Quite obviously, until you have heard what Australia's requests, Canada's requests and New Zealand's requests are it would be folly for the British Government to say here and now what they are going to agree to and what they are not. It is an Imperial Conference of equal Governments, and to bang, bar and close the door would be resented by every self-governing Dominion.

Captain BENN: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is the only Parliament in which a debate has not taken place and the views of the Members been sought on this important subject?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I do not arrange the business of the House, but it is in order on the Colonial Office Vote, no doubt, to discuss the Imperial Economic Conference here and now. The special responsibility is mine in connection with the Crown Colonies and Protectorates, as the representative of their interests before this Imperial Conference I want to make it clear, in view of the many-sided nature of the problem and the many Colonies in different parts of the world, that I have been unable to set up a Committee, which would be much too large for any one Committee to advise me on the matter, but I am in touch with all the Colonial Governments, and I am seeking unofficial suggestions.
I shall certainly consult the hon. Member for Blackburn, who has set up the East African Committee, just as I shall consult the West African Chambers of Commerce and such like bodies in the representation of interests in connection with this matter. I shall also get into touch with the West Indian Committee. I have had to cover a very vast field, and there are many distant Colonies which will be disappointed that I have said nothing about them. Our relations with Ireland are similar to those with the Dominion of Canada, and it has given us a very much increased amount of work. I know that during? the last nine months, interesting as has been our work, one feels at the moment one cannot do justice to it. I think peace with Turkey, the settlement of Kenya, which I hope will be endorsed by the House to-night, the termination of the rule of the chartered company and the setting up of two Governments in Rhodesia, the various steps I have outlined, the education committee in Africa and the like is no mean record of work done and progress achieved. I believe it is the tradition in this House to keep party politics as far as possible out of Colonial administration. I have always endeavoured to bring a single-minded devotion to the welfare and the progress of all peoples in the dependent Empire, and to keep that before my eyes, and I recommend the Vote with confidence to the House.

Sir ROBERT HAMILTON: The Committee, I am sure, owes a debt of gratitude to the hon. Gentleman for the very clear and interesting statement he has given us of the activities of his Department in different parts of the world, but, as he has said, and as we have all seen. he has had, within the compass of something like an hour and a half, to cover the greater portion of the earth's surface and in consequence, in this Debate, which has some five hours allotted to it, it will be the duty of every speaker to confine his remarks as closely as possible to the particular subject with which he intends to deal. I intend to deal with one subject only, but it is one of importance not only to the Colony itself, but to the whole Empire. I refer of course to the Kenya question and I desire to approach it in the same spirit as that in which the hon. Gentleman himself spoke. These colonial matters are not
and should not be party matters and as regards this question, if I may use a colloquial phrase with regard to it, I should say it should not be approached either in a pro-Indian or a pro-settler spirit. It is very desirable that this matter should be discussed in this House, in the grand inquest of the nation. The local atmosphere of Kenya itself has become impossible for anything like a calm and cool discussion of the issues involved. Things have been said in heat which I have no doubt both sides have regretted, and would wish to forget. I would ask the House to give its attention to the subject with all coolness of the atmosphere of the Imperial Parliament, and to regard the whole question as an Imperial question.
It was said long ago that there is always something new out of Africa. That is perfectly true, but one of the qualifications of that statement should be that what is new out of Africa very often is not true, and it is exceedingly difficult, as I have found in my own experience in Africa, to arrive at the truth. A man may come to you and say his brother has been robbed and killed. A little inquiry will show that the man is not his brother, that he has not been robbed, and that he is very much alive. When the matters in which it is so difficult to arrive at the truth in Africa are transported to this country they become still more difficult, and it is not only the facts that are transported but the atmosphere of propaganda. I am afraid we have not by any means shaken ourselves clear from the habits of propaganda that grew so during the War, and this question has been brought to this country in an atmosphere of propaganda. I am sure every Member of the House has had an infinity of pamphlets of every sort and description from both sides on the matter, and I am sure the majority of us have treated them, as most hon. Members treat such pamphlets, by passing them into that useful receptacle known as the waste-paper basket, but in case any remnants of that propaganda remain, I would ask hon. Members to endeavour to dismiss them entirely from their minds. There have been many efforts made to settle the question here involved, and we owe and should express to the Government our thanks for the great efforts they have made to settle this matter by agreement on this occasion. The honest efforts
that have been made between the Colonial Office, the India Office and all parties concerned to get a settlement by agreement have been enormous, and we must all regret that we have not got a settlement by agreement. We have been given a settlement which the Colonial Office thinks is the best under the circumstances. In looking closely, as we must look closely, at that settlement, I would say that the best test is—is it going to settle the matters for the future or is it only a stop-gap for the present? When I was a young man I was taught, as most of us have been taught, to pray for heretics. As I grow older my prayer has been that I should learn to understand the other man's position. We must try to understand the other man's point of view. There are opinions held most tenaciously by both sides in regard to this matter, and we should endeavour to understand the reasons for them.
If I may be permitted, I should like to describe briefly the Colony of Kenya. It lies in the tropics on the Indian Ocean, and the 10 miles strip in which the Sultan of Zanzibar's flag flies is a rich tropical belt. That is the Protectorate of Kenya, and behind that there is a strip of desert gradually rising to the African plateau, where we get those wonderful and magnificent highlands which rise to a height of from 5,000 to 9,000 feet, and where anything and everything grows, both the fruits and cereals that we have at home and the fruits of the tropics. Potatoes and pineapples grow in the same garden. From that plateau the land drops quickly to the great lakes. What is known as the white area are the highlands of Kenya. It is only a small portion. The White Paper estimates it as one-tenth of the area, but I think one-tenth is rather a large estimate. I should be inclined to put as somewhat smaller the area suitable for white colonisation. When I say suitable for white colonisation, there is one underlying fact that we have to keep in mind. It is a great experiment colonising at these high altitudes under the Equator. Those who have lived there, and are best qualified to speak, say that the experiment is bound to be a success. I am not quite so sanguine that it will be a success. We can only wait and see how the second and third generations of our people can be born and bred out there. In the meantime, we have a large number
of white settlers who are putting their money and their backs into the work of developing that country.
Having briefly sketched the country, I will, with the Committee's permission, go back a few years into its history and trace the beginning of our rule in East Africa. It began with the Charter of the old Imperial British East Africa Company, which was founded by that far-sighted Scotsman, William MacKinnon. He got a Concession from the Sultan of Zanzibar. The Chartered Company took as its motto, "Light and liberty." I should like to refer to one Clause of the Charter, and although I do not lay too much stress upon it, it is rather interesting as being the basis on which our rule there started. Clause 17 of the Charter says:
There shall be no differential treatment of the subjects of any power as to trade or settlement or as to access to markets.
Let us look 10 years later, when the British Government took over from the Company the administration of the territories which the Company found itself without resources to deal with. In those days, as for many hundred years before, there had been Indians settled on the coast. The earliest official figures that I have been able to find with regard to the various races there are contained n one of Sir Arthur Harding's early reports in 1897. Sir Arthur Harding was Commissioner and Consul-General in those, days. The figures were then 7,500 Indians and 390 Europeans and Eurasians. In 1896 the Uganda Railway was commenced. For the building of that railway the Government turned to India for men, material, engineers, clerks, telegraphists and everything. In those days the trade of the country was entirely in the hands of the Indians, and the Government naturally turned to the Indian merchants to help them. Thousands of coolies were brought from India, and no attempt was made to make use of the native material at the time of the building of the Uganda railway. The railway was pressed on in a great hurry in order to reach the head waters of the Nile. It was purely a strategic railway. After the Boer War, when the railway was finished, an. effort was made to obtain settlers for the country which had been opened up by the railway. Emissaries were sent, particularly to
South Africa, setting out the advantages and asking men to come with their wives and families from South Africa and settle in the new land. The result was that a large number of Boer and South African settlers came, and in 1911 we had 2,700 white people in the country, while the Indians had increased to 11,800.
I am sorry to worry the Committee with these figures, but they are rather interesting as showing the development. When the Europeans first came into the country, it was a country in which there were very large numbers of Indians. The Europeans knew that that was the country they were coming to. The last Census of 1921 shows that there are 22,800 Indians there and 9,000 Europeans. Although immigration has been open to the Indians since 1897 to 1921, and although they have been invited, and lands were set aside for them for agricultural settlement, and every inducement given to them to come, the fact remains that from 1897 to 1921 the number of Indians only increased three times. whereas during the same period the number of Europeans increased 23 times. It is a very important matter to consider when the Europeans say that they are afraid of being swamped by the immigration of Indians, that during all this time when the country has been open to immigration the number of Indians has not largely increased. It is a purely economic question, and the Indians who have gone to East Africa have gone there because they have seen an opening there. If they see no opening for themselves, they go back to their own country. Large numbers of them are employed as clerks, telegraphists, and in occupations of that sort, in which there will be no place for them if the native African is educated as he should be in his own country. The African educated in his own country will easily be able to keep out the more expensive Indian imported as an artisan from India. That is an important sidelight in regard to the native question.
I should like to refer briefly to the political developments. The first Legislative Council was set up in 1906, and one Indian was placed upon that Council. In 1908 an agitation began very strongly among the European settlers for an elective franchise. The first Council was purely nominated. In 1910 there was formed what is known in East Africa as the Convention of Associations—the
Convention of Associations to which European people belong, and which acquired very rapidly the name of the Settlers' Parliament. That Convention of Associations exercised very great political influence in the country and was able, as time went on, practically to dictate to the Governors the policy that should be followed. In 1919 the franchise was granted to Europeans. During all this time the party in power politically was purely European, and as may be found in any part of the world, and as we have found in our own history, when one party only is in power it naturally legislates in its own interests. If we look back on these years of the history of Kenya, we shall see a succession of laws passed very much in the interests of the white population alone, while the interests of the Africans, the real natives of the place, were very much left out. I refer particularly to the labour laws that have been passed. Most drastic labour laws have been passed from time to time by the Europeans in order to compel the natives to work for them. There was no idea then—I do not know how far there is an idea now—of the native being a producer on his own account. In those years there was a very strong antagonism and antipathy to the idea of the native producing anything that should come into competition with that which the European settler produced. I do not think we can look for development in any Colony on those lines. The Under-Secretary said rightly that we must look for joint production, joint dealing together, if we are to promote the future advancement of the Colony.
I can further illustrate the selfishness of the legislation that has taken place by referring to education. Beyond the small 5 per cent. Customs Duty the first tax was the Hut Tax, which was three rupees. It gradually mounted up until the present moment when it is 12s.—it was 15s., but has come down. That tax brings in something like £500,000. How much of that is spent on educating the native to take his place, in his own country? Until a few years ago nothing, and last year £21,000. I quote that merely as an instance to show how selfish legislation may be when it gets entirely into the hands of one party. The declared object of the white settler in Kenya has been to work up to self government. Those hon. Members who have read the White Paper will see that the idea
of self government has been, and I think rightly, pushed out of the present picture. It may come in the future, but any idea of having the Colony self governing at present is rightly in the background. You have got a long way to go before that Colony will be ripe for governing itself.
During the time the political power has been in the hands of what I may call the settler party, the Indians naturally felt themselves left out in the cold and treated not as fellow subjects in the Empire, but almost, I was going to say, as helots, and left entirely out of political consideration with no representation at all. During those years political consciousness in India has been awakened and events have moved very rapidly in India. There is no doubt that the development of political consciousness in India has directly affected the political feelings of the Indians in East Africa, and so from those beginnings we see how naturally the issues now before the country came up—the issue of the franchise, that is political power, the issue of the highlands of Kenya for the European settler, the issue of immigration, which is the right of British citizens to move from one part of the Empire to another, and the issue of segregation which is purely and simply a question of colour. I will touch on those subjects in the order in which they are dealt with in the White Paper.
On the first point raised in the general statement of policy I would like to quote a Swahili proverb which I think is applicable to the position. Translated it amounts to this: "When elephants fight the grass gets trodden down." We have seen the elephants of India and England fighting, and the grass of the poor native is badly trodden down. We welcome the declaration of the Government of trusteeship on behalf of the native, and we hope that that declaration of trusteeship will not remain merely a piece of paper, but will be translated into acts. The next point dealt with, apart from that of responsible self-government which is put into the background, is the question of the franchise. That is admittedly the most difficult of all questions that came up for consideration. It has been dealt with by giving communal franchise. That is a way which apparently leads out of the difficulty. I say apparently, because I am satisfied that the grant of
communal franchise will not lead to a lasting settlement. It may be a temporary arrangement, but it will leave the political feelings, so acute at the present time, still at a point at which the Indians will demand to be treated as citizens of the Empire, and the difficulties which the European feels now in granting them those powers will still have to be settled at a future date.
For that reason I regret very much that the Government could not see their way to follow what is known as the Wood-Winterton agreement. This goes back on the decision arrived at a year ago. Under that agreement there was to be a common electoral roll. The Indians were to have four out of 11 seats. Under the present arrangement the Indians are to have communal representation and they are to have five seats out of a total of 18 or 20. I say that a communal roll can never be a settlement of the question because, in a country like East Africa, where you have all shades and grades of people living and working together alongside one another, apart from the actual difficulties of working such a system, you will always find that the people who are elected on a communal roll are in separate compartments. They are not pulling together as one people, and the only possible hope of the country having political forces that should be working together is that they should be standing on the same floor and not in different rooms in different places.
I now come to a most extraordinary suggestion contained in this Paper. From whom it emanated I cannot think. That is the suggestion, that there should be a missionary on the Executive Council and another missionary on the Legislative Council. Does the Government intend, in addition to all the other difficulties under this arrangement, having to introduce a Kikuyu controversy? What sort of a missionary is to be appointed? Is he to be High Church, Low Church, or Roman Catholic? To what particular form of the Christian religion is he to belong? And this is proposed, mind you, in a country which is partly Mahommedan and very largely pagan. The reason given for these extraordinary appointments is that they are to represent the natives. Are the Government so impotent
that they could not have an officer of their own, either the Governor or the Commissioner for Native Affairs?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: The Commissioner for Native Affairs will of course be on the Council.

Sir R. HAMILTON: I do not wish it to appear for one moment that I desire to belittle the good work which the missionaries are doing in the country. If it had not been for the missionaries, the natives would not have had even the amount of education which they have had. I do not wish to say one word against them, but I do protest against what can only be called a grotesque suggestion. The other point, that of segregation, is only a minor point. It was suggested by the medical experts. We all know what medical experts are, but the Government omitted to realise how deeply such a suggestion would move the feelings of our Indian fellow subjects. I am glad to say that the question of segregation has been dropped.
There remains the question of the reservation of the highlands. That stands in a very peculiar position. We have this block of country reserved for one portion of the inhabitants but reserved in very peculiar conditions, because from the very beginning, from the date of the Land Commission in 1905, Lord Elgin's statement of 1906 was repeated by subsequent Secretaries of State, over and over again. It was that the highlands should be reserved for Europeans. It is very hard to get away from that, and, the position being as I have described, the Government could hardly have done otherwise than they have done, seeing that they are continuing to reserve these lands to Europeans, who have come in and settled there on certain conditions, which have been constantly held out. There I think we have to honour the pledge. But I would rather see it modified to this extent, that though the initial grant should be given only to Europeans and there should be no bar on the European afterwards selling it to whomsoever he likes. That will remove the grievance which is felt by those to whom such land cannot be transferred under the Government scheme.
The last point dealt with is the point of immigration on which I have already touched. I believe that it is largely an
economic question, but I would like particularly to refer to the manner in which this document has been drawn. I should not have done so had not the hon. and gallant Gentleman assured the Committee that this was no mere Departmental document, but a State document of importance which would be referred to hereafter. At the commencement of the Clause dealing with immigration it is stated:
It may be stated definitely that only in extreme circumstances could His Majesty's Government contemplate legislation designed to exclude from a British colony immigrants from any other part of the British Empire. Such racial discrimination in immigration regulations, whether specific or implied, would not be in accord with the general policy of His Majesty's Government and they cannot countenance the introduction of any such legislation in Kenya.
With that I have no fault to find as a statement of the position. In the same section, dealing with the economic aspect, it is said:
." When the question is re-examined from this standpoint (i.e. with reference to native interests) it is evident to His Majesty's Government that some further control over immigration in the economic interests of the natives of Kenya is required. The primary duty of the Colonial Government is the advancement of the African and it is incumbent upon them to protect him from an influx of immigrants from any country that might tend to retard his economic development.
6.0 P.M.
Who is going to draw the rules? That is a most important thing. One man might draw the rules, and say, "We have got to protect the African, that is what the Government says; therefore we must see that no land is taken away from the African, and we must keep out the European immigrant." Is that the way the rules are going to be drawn, or are they going to be drawn to say, "The Asiatic coming in competes with the African, and we are going to keep the Asiatic out "? I want to lay special stress on that, because the question of how these rules are to be drawn is left open, and there are instructions to the Governor to go into that. I ask the Government to see that it in no way derogates from the primary condition laid down in the Clause. If it conforms with the beginning of the Clause I do not mind what regulations follow, but we must be very careful to see that they do not get round the principle there laid down.
We know that the economic condition of the country is very far from good, although I was pleased to hear the hon. and gallant Gentleman say that it was improving. We want, and we are going to have, a Government which will look after African interests, and which is going to keep the question of self-government by a section of the community in the background. That means that we have got to have a strong Governor, who will not be afraid of using his official majority in order to put through Imperial Measures. In order to strengthen the hands of such a Governor, I have a suggestion to make, which does not come from me alone, but is one which many other people have made. It is that the power of the Government should be strengthened by the appointment of a High Commissioner. We want a High Commissioner to resist pressures; pressures from above, and. pressures from below; and I submit that the power of the Government would be greatly strengthened if we had a High Commissioner, not only for the country of Kenya, but for the adjacent countries of Zanzibar, the Mandated Territory, Tanganyika, and Uganda. Questions would come before him which would not be submitted to a Colonial Office, and it would get rid of a lot which annoys the Colonial Office, and, what annoys the colonist, of what they call the interference of the Colonial Office. Such an appointment might have checked the unhappy exhibition, which we saw a year cr two ago, of an attempt to reform the currency in Kenya. It would also have avoided the tearing up of the Voi-Kahe or Voi-Taveta Railway. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has made full amends for his ignorance in regard to that railway, and so I will say no more than this, that I believe there is very good precedent for such a mistake in the office of the hon. and gallant Gentleman in regard to Cape Breton, where the Minister, on discovering it was an island, immediately went off and informed the King.
I do not know whether the proposals here put forward will be accepted by the Indians. I cannot tell what view they will take. I hope they will accept them, because, after all, they should be careful of cutting themselves off from the political life of the country, and it does give them a standing. What they
miss, and what I am sure they will give expression to as missing, is this, that there is, throughout this document, nothing to show that the Government realise the real thing they are asking for. The real thing they are asking for is a recognition that they are fellow-citizens of the Empire. There is not one word in this document which gives effect to that. On the other hand, it is true that the Government say, "There will be no segregation, we will not put you in a ghetto." I would ask, even at this late hour, whether the Government cannot make some gesture, and cannot stretch out their hands, and say, "We do intend to recognise that the Indian is going to take his part, and to prove himself, if he can, worthy of his citizenship of the Empire." In conclusion, I would say to the Indian, "Take what is given, and make the best of it." I would say to the settler, "Give up the selfishness you have had before; widen your horizon; see that you are not only legislating and governing in your own interests, but in the wider interests of the whole colony, and so of the whole Empire." I would say to this House, "It is the duty of this House to see that those promises which have been made are carried into effect, and do not only remain on paper." I beg to move.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. James Hope): Do I understand that the hon. Member moves a reduction of the Vote?

Sir R. HAMILTON: Yes, I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £100.

Sir SYDNEY HENN: I wish to make a few observations to the Committee on the economic condition of the East African Colonies. During the earlier months of this year I had an opportunity of visiting East Africa. I travelled through Kenya and Uganda, and I met a great variety of residents from Tanganyika, from Nyasaland, and also from Zanzibar, and I tried to form in my own mind as complete a picture as I could of the present economic state of those countries. I do not wish to touch on the political aspect of-those questions which have been raised to-day, but I should like, in passing, to offer the Government my congratulations on what I think is the very statesmanlike solution of a very difficult problem. I feel quite sure that there will be extremists of both
parties who will not accept this solution in the spirit in which it is meant, but I believe it is the best in the circumstances More particularly, I hope—as I believe—that our friends, the so-called white settlers in Kenya, will recognise that in that settlement there is a great hope for them also. During the course of my visit I saw a great many of them, and I found them very much discouraged.
I do not share the optimistic opinion that was expressed by the Under-Secretary in regard to the condition of those 'Colonies. I found them all in what I should call a depressed condition. In fact, commercially speaking, they were languishing. There are many reasons, to my mind, why those Colonies are suffering from this present depression. In the first place, we have the old question of communications. There are immense territories there that still want, not only railways but roads, and they cannot be developed until those can be produced The railways that exist in those territories are of various characters, and in various states of health. The Uganda Railway does, as a matter of fact, carry considerable promise of future improvement. In fact, it may be said to be almost a paying proposition to-day. The Tanganyika railways have no hope of being put on a paying basis for the time being, but they are necessary to the existence of those countries. I should like to make one or two suggestions to the Government with regard to matters of general policy that would, I think, help very greatly to put those Colonies on the way to prosperity. In my opinion, one of the first and most essential things is to lift the whole of the railway services in East Africa out of the level in which they stand under the various administrations, and to form a strong central railway board; a railway board composed largely of the commercial element, but also with the necessary guarantee of Government representation to look after the public interest.
It should be a board that could consider, not only questions of administration, but questions of policy, and questions such as we have had recently raised in the House of Commons with regard to the best methods of construction. it should be a board that could see that the various administrations were put on a commercial basis, and run on business lines, with the certainty that some of
those lines would soon enough acquire sufficient credit to be able to obtain, through the open market, the funds that were necessary for their development; while those railways that for a considerable period of time would still be unable to pay their way might merit on the part of the Government, either in the form of guaranteed loans or of direct grants-in-aid, that help without which they never will be constructed, and certainly could not be administered or operated for a great number of years. There is another thing which I think should be carried into effect as soon as it becomes possible for the Government to do so. It was foreshadowed by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir R. Hamilton), when he referred to the possibility of appointing a High Commissioner.
In my opinion, we should go very much further than that, and, if it were possible to do so, we should start at once to try and bring about the immediate federation, not only of the four Colonies referred to, but also of the Colony of Nyassaland, which is practically coterminous with Tanganyika territory. Such a federation might be difficult to carry out in completeness from the very first, but a beginning might very easily be made by unifying those services which are common to all those Colonies, and yet carrying five seperate administrations. Take the case of the posts and the telegraphs. Take the case of the railways—if they were transferred to a central board of railways. Take the case of the medical, the agricultural, and the veterinary services, which are carried on at the present time under three or four separate establishments, and under conditions which do not lend themselves to the very best results. For example, I found in one Colony that the Director of Agriculture objected to the planting of coffee by natives, and in the next Colony the Director of Agriculture recommended and pressed for the planting of coffee by natives. In a third Colony the Director of Agriculture also expressed an opinion unfavourable to the planting of coffee by natives. There were thus two authorities to one on the question, but where doctors differ, how can we hope to find salvation? In regard to that particular matter, I consulted a man who had had great experience in coffee planting in Costa Rica, and he said that in
Costa Rica the planters encouraged all the natives around them to grow coffee. There is another respect in which the federation of these States would be very beneficial to the future development of East Africa. It is a point which I am glad to see has been very ably brought out in the White Paper published last night. I refer to the trusteeship of the natives. Prior to my visit I had never been to Africa and had never met with the African races in their native home, and I have great pleasure in testifying publicly here to the fact that, throughout these Colonies, I found the very best relations between the white people and the native races. More particularly did I notice that the administrative officers throughout these Colonies are not only trusted, but are beloved by the natives. There can be no question about that. On the other hand, I did come across discrepancies between the treatment meted out to the natives in one Colony as compared with another Colony. I listened, for example, to a complaint from the natives on the eastern side of Lake Victoria that they were not so well treated in the matter of land reservation and land tenure as their brethren on the other side of the lake in Uganda. I do not wish to state, because" I have not the full knowledge which others possess who have lived for a long time in that country, that these complaints were necessarily fair, but there certainly was a difference of treatment. Such differences should never arise, and I believe could never arise, under the administration of the trusteeship by a Governor-General or High Commissioner—just as you like to call him—who would really be responsible for the welfare of the native races in Africa to the British Government, the British Parliament and the British nation.
In this connection I should also like to refer to the business aspect of the situation. Everywhere I went I found that in some way or other enterprise was discouraged. I do not like to use the words "private enterprise," since that is not a favourite phrase with some people, but enterprise was discouraged by the part taken by the local administration or the Government in the regulation of trade, by interference with trade and industry, and by Government participation in trade. In this matter it is not possible to dogmatise and to say that there should
be no interference, no participation or no regulation; we know we cannot live without regulation, but everybody connected with administration such as exists in Central Africa should realise that all these things are dreadful discouragements to private enterprise. Examples of this meet one at every turn. There is room for all sorts of enterprise. I quite agree with the Under-Secretary that the basis of progress in these countries lies in the energies of the native, in the uplifting and education of the native and the inducement held out to the native to work, and, if he will not work, a gentle fatherly pressure of the right kind so that he may be educated to work, but always reaping the profit from his own work. In saying that, I do not think that for one single moment that leaves out of the picture the possibilities or opportunities of private enterprise in various forms taking a part in the development of these colonies.
In the case of the white settlers, they are working out their own salvation under very great difficulties. They are not all land grabbers. Some of them are very hard workers indeed and most of them have risked their lives and a good deal of their money and have lost their money. I believe the great bulk of them will win through these hard times and that the day will come when we shall all realise that it is a very solid advantage to this Empire to have that little block of white men of our race established perfectly firmly in their highlands in the centre of Africa. It will at least, in my opinion, provide a guarantee for good order and for the defence of any rights which the British Empire may possess in that part of the world. In conclusion, I ask the Government, through its administrative officers, to extend a more friendly hand to the business man who wishes to work in those countries. It is a fact that in Tanganyika many efforts have been made to make a start in that country, but they have met with a very poor response, and the accounts which I received out there all agreed in saying that the actual administration in Tanganyika was not too sympathetic and I am afraid it is a little reactionary. I thank the Committee for having listened to me with such patience.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: The speech to which we have just listened is an example
of the sort of speech which the House of Commons really enjoys. It is the speech of a man who has been there and who states his opinion about the country and gives his views, and although we, on this side, differ from those views, they are views which ought to be expressed here. The Committee will forgive me if I do not immediately deal with the Kenya question, but with one or two minor points which I have been instructed to bring before the Under-Secretary. In the first place, I wish that we could have had a fuller account than we had of the development of the Constitutions of the West Indies, but I suppose we must wait until we get a regular report upon that question. One point in connection with the West Indies which I wish to bring out is the question of land development in the Island of Trinidad. There have been constant complaints from Trinidad, not from the Indians in this case, but from the natives, that the 400,000 acres of unalienated land in Trinidad is either being held up, or when it is alienated, is sold in such large blocks that the only people who can purchase it are companies or white planters who are working on a large scale. I cannot understand why this unalienated land in a Colony where unemployment is rife should not be alienated out in small lots on lease. In that case the State as a whole, or the people of Trinidad as a whole, do not lose the ultimate reversion of the property and undubtedly it would lead to development of employment and production particularly in cocoa and other minor products of the sort which we get from Trinidad—just the same as the development of the cocoa industry which we have on the Gold Coast. Everybody knows the bad times through which the West Indies have been passing lately. With the exception of sugar everything slumped—palm oil, cocoa and so forth—and the small cultivators in an island like Trinidad are practically ruined, their property is mortgaged and they have been compelled to borrow money in order to buy these large blocks of land. They have been pressing, and I understand the Government of Trinidad and the Governor himself have been pressing, for the establishment in that island of agricultural banks to help these small cultivators, and I am told, to my surprise, that the opposition to this proposal comes from
the Colonial Office. I think that is a short-sighted policy. I am quite aware that a big bank like the Colonial Bank would be opposed to that sort of thing and to the development of agricultural banks, but we cannot possibly develop any Colony if we look at it solely from the point of view of one particular interest in that Colony. We want the largest possible facilities for development, and I hope the Under-Secretary will see his way to make inquiry into this matter.
I pass rather hurriedly from the West Indies to the West Coast of Africa. I am glad to hear the Under-Secretary, in the course of his first statement to us on Colonial affairs, announce that he is going out to the West Coast because there axe several questions there which require the urgent attention of the Government. I put in the first place the extravagant capital expenditure of these Colonies, and there, I am afraid, I shall have the Under-Secretary against me. I am quite certain that you are going to saddle the taxpayers of these Crown Colonies with enormous burdens for such works as the development of the new harbour at Takoradi and the new railway, and if you are going to saddle them with these gigantic burdens, you will strangle the development of these Colonies and you will have to continue, and even to increase, the export duties in order to find the interest on the loan. In the long run such capital expenditure will be a handicap and not a means of developing the Colony. Then take the actual annual Government expenditure. When salaries were raised on the West Coast, they were raised without any qualification as to the cost of living, and, as the cost of living has fallen, although salaries have fallen also in other parts of the world, on the West Coast they are still at the high.[level of 1920. I think there really should be some cut of salaries, or, if not, it might be possible to establish a local Income Tax which would cut them for you. The hon. and gallant Gentleman rather ridicules the idea of an Income Tax on the West Coast of Africa, but I do not know why, because, after all, he has been the means of establishing something like that in Tanganyika, but perhaps what is good enough for Tanganyika is not good enough for the Gold Coast, especially if applied to the salaries as well as the profits of com-
panies. The real difficulty on the West Coast is that of balancing the Budget. Salaries have gone up, officials have more than doubled in number, the costs of Government have increased enormously, and, at the same time, the Government by a gesture of disinterestedness which was beautiful, but not practical, have cut off their principal source of revenue. In these circumstances the Government have been faced with a deficit, and they have put on export duties which will really strangle the trade of the Colonies. I call the hon. and gallant Gentleman's attention to the experiment of the Governor, Brigadier-General Sir Gordon Guggisberg. Governor Guggisberg, faced with a dwindling revenue and the complaints in this House of Commons last year, decided to cut his cocoa tax and to reduce the cocoa export duty by 50 per cent. What was the result? On paper the loss should have been £326,000 a year, but, as a matter of fact, the reduction in that duty by 50 per cent. resulted ultimately in an actual loss of only about £23,000. If additional cocoa is exported from the Gold Coast, the natives on the Gold Coast who own the cocoa purchase the equivalent amount in this country, and anything that increases your exports in that country immediately results in an increase of exports of cotton goods from Lancashire. When you are not only, by your export duties, strangling the cocoa export trade, but at the same time strangling the Lancashire export trade, you are doing double harm to the Empire, and that experience shows that in the case of the Gold Coast a reduction of these export duties would pay for itself. Even a complete cancellation of these export duties would very largely pay for itself, because it immediately involves larger imports into the Colony, and the import duties are a very large proportion of the total revenue of the Colony.
I come back to the question of balancing the Budget, because until you have your finances in good order there, you cannot expect the trade to recover or our exports from Lancashire to the Gold Coast, Nigeria, and Sierra Leone to revive; and, of course, Nigeria, which is ten times the size of the other two Colonies, is hardly scratched, has hardly begun to be developed, yet. The trade to the Gold Coast and Sierra Leone per square mile of territory must be
infinitely greater than to that untapped market of Nigeria. The way to balance the Budgets on the West Coast, and the way also to do the right thing by the natives, is to revise the whole of your system of dealing with the liquor traffic on the West Coast. I do not believe there is a single hon. Member in this House, or a single permanent official in the Colonial Office, who really approves now of our gesture at St. Germain. The St. Germain Treaty, into which we went with all the enthusiasm of a recent Armistice, resulted in all the great nations having colonies on the West Coast of Africa deciding that henceforth they would no longer allow the nigger to get gin. When we do a thing like that we mean it, and the Colonial Office, full of its new virtue, determined to stop trade spirits. I gather that the first who objected were the Europeans on the West Coast, who did not quite see it, and they got their exemption, I understand, but the Colonial Office did their best to prevent trade gin going into their West Coast Colonies, and they thought all was well. Then they discovered, to their surprise, that gin, trade spirit, was coming over the frontiers from the French Colonies. They discovered that the French Government were selling in Togoland 50,000 gallons, I believe it was, of surplus war stores in the shape of gin, and they discovered, a thing they had never known before, that the native could make an intoxicating liquor in his back garden. The result has been practically no limitation in the consumption of alcohol in the West Coast Colonies at all, but an enormous drop in the revenue, and that is not all. The native is now getting acclimatised to making his own drink, and he makes it by tapping the cocoa palm.

Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. NORTON-GRIFFITHS: He always did that.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: I know, but in the old days he was not driven to do it. He did not need to go and spoil his own palm trees, but at present, by your prohibition of the import of trade spirits, you are forcing the natives, not only to make their own drink and reduce the Government's share in the profits of the industry, but you are forcing them also to cut down their trees and thus to destroy their capital and ruin the trading prospects
of the Colony. Everybody who knows the facts of the whole of this drink position on the West Coast knows that it has been getting worse and worse year by year. The Under-Secretary is going out to the West Coast this winter, and I suggest to him that he should stiffen his visit, if I may say so, by taking with him a Commission, a Royal Commission if he likes, or a Select Committee of this House if he likes, to inquire into the drink question, to see whether we cannot revise our position, whether we cannot go back to the old system of import duties, and have those import duties turned into ad valorem import duties, which would make the gin dearer than it is, but would secure that that extra dear-ness went into the pockets of the Government instead of into the pockets of the smugglers. That is an attitude which could be taken up, and a policy which could be advocated, not only by Members opposite, not only by people interested in the licensed trade, but we on this side equally advocate this change of policy. We advocate it, not because it will lead to any increase of drinking, but because we believe it will lead to a reduction of drinking and to a more efficient control of the trade in these spirits. Anybody who has the interests of the natives at heart would, I am sure, support the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into the circumstances of the case, and to gee whether something could not be done to revise that Treaty of St. Germain. We want to get back into a position where we should have our hands free for dealing with the liquor question as we thought fit, and preferably, I believe, by putting a heavy ad valorem import duty on the drink going into that Colony.
Now in regard to the very dangerous pronouncement of the Under-Secretary on railways. I did not realise before what the Government were up to. As far as I can see, this new Committee, according to all the questions in this House that have been streaming upon us lately, which was to consider whether it would be cheaper to construct railways departmentally or by contract, is really going to consider how private railways can best be made to pay and be constructed in the Crown Colonies.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Whether they can supplement State enterprise.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: Yes, but I hope my hon. Friend sees the danger. All railways of that sort in the Colonies before have been made by getting the alternative block system, and they have paid, not by the traffic on the railway, but by the increase in value of the land blocks which they have secured. Surely the hon. Gentleman does not intend that any system of railway enterprise should be introduced in any of our Crown Colonies which will sacrifice the rights of the natives in that way. It is essential, if we are going to have railway development, that it should not be a railway development to take the land away from the natives, but that it should be purely a business enterprise, creating railways, creating additional transport facilities, and not looking to making their profits by the holding up or the sals of land rights. I hope that is quite clear, and that the Under-Secretary will deal with that when he comes to speak.
May I pass on to the question of Rhodesia? I congratulate the Government on their Rhodesian settlement. I have had grave suspicions of the Under-Secretary for years past, and I am afraid I have shown them only too often, but I think the solution that has been arrived at by him reflects great credit upon him, and at the same time relieves this country of the serious charge that we sacrificed the rights of the natives to our pockets. Under the settlement, as I understand it, we pay £1,750,000 for the charter rights in Northern Rhodesia. I gather that the annual deficit in Northern Rhodesia must be pretty considerable. Does it mean that, in addition to this £1,750,000, we are to find year by year a Grant-in-Aid of £100,000 to balance the Northern Rhodesian Budget? If so, I think we ought to know where we are. I do not say it is not necessary, that we might not ultimately get our money back, but I want to know where we are. There are two sections in the settlement of which we cannot possibly approve, and which, I think, have been passed without really adequate consideration. We have had protests from the Labour party in Rhodesia about them already. I refer to the grant of mineral rights in Northern Rhodesia, which seems to us to be rather vague. I do not know what they mean, but do they include all royalties from mines at present in operation, and what
is the value of these mineral rights estimated to be? In the second place, the point we want to criticise, and which, I think, has not been adequately criticised yet, is the stipulation that we shall not assist the development of railways which will compete with existing lines. It is obvious that Northern Rhodesia is bound to connect itself up more and more closely with the Zambesi mouth, that the natural flow of her trade will be down towards Chinde and the mouth of the Zambesi, rather than right away down the Continent, but if you get the trade of Northern Rhodesia developing naturally, whether across to Angola or down to the Zambesi, you have to construct railways. Are we to understand that all these railways, that any development of railway interests in these directions, is barred by this Clause which prevents undue competition?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: No

Colonel WEDGWOOD: I am glad to hear it, but at the same time we must remember that the Chartered Company shareholders will look at the whole of this document—I suppose this is the draft of the official document—with the eyes of a lawyer. They will see these Clauses in, and they may well read into them conditions and qualifications which would hamper the development of the Colony, not only in Northern Rhodesia but in Southern Rhodesia also.
What have we paid this £1,750,000 for? Some of it, no doubt, is for buildings, for the Government as a going concern, but mostly this House is going to be asked to pay that money in order to buy back the native rights in their own land in South Africa. We ought never to have allowed those native rights to go, and if it had not been for a foolish letter from the Colonial Office, written in days long since gone by, practically confirming by an ipse dixit the rights of the Chartered Company in the Lewanika concession, we should not now be saddled with this enormous debt. I am glad to pay it, in order to manumit the million natives of Northern Rhodesia, but you cannot save those natives in the long run unless you take the earliest opportunity of establishing their fundamental Grond wet, as it was called, or land law, which will establish once for all those native rights.
I congratulate the Government on the legislation concerning land that they have introduced in Tanganyika. There they brought forward an Act, or enacted an Ordinance, which seems to me to be absolutely ideal. I should like to read the opening paragraph of this law, because this is what our Colonial Office ought to stand for, and ought to have stood for in the past centuries. It reads:
Whereas it is expedient that the existing customary rights of the natives of the Tanganyika Territory to use and enjoy the land of the Territory and the natural fruits thereof in sufficient quantities to enable them to provide for the sustenance of themselves, their families, and their posterity should be assured, protected, and preserved "—
and then the law goes on to reserve the land of Tanganyika for the natives of Tanganyika. That is the right spirit. I hope we shall see an Ordinance similar to that enacted also for Northern Rhodesia. Once that is approved, even your prospecting railway companies cannot get away from it. Once you have your fundamental land law, you save the liberties of these people; you allow them to work on their own land, and you Jo not force them to go and work for an employer. So far, your Rhodesian settlement, animated, I believe, by the right spirit of the Colonial Office, has rescued the natives of Northern Rhodesia, but not enough. I hope you will carry that on by seeing they are rescued in perpetuity. As regards Southern Rhodesia, I think we can congratulate ourselves that the people decided to keep out of the Union of South Africa. They have shown, I think, political common-sense, and, as far as I can see, the development of that country is likely to be far more prosperous as a self-governing dominion, independent of all rival sectional hatreds, than it would have been if it had gone into a Union, where the position of the settlers would not have been quite so strong as it is to-day.
There is one point, however, about that settlement to which I think we have got to draw attention. I think if Southern Rhodesia was given self-government, a year or two hence, even this year, there is no doubt we should have had definite stipulations to protect the political
rights and status of the natives. We have always been told that the natives of Southern Rhodesia have votes on the common roll. Yes, but there are only about 50 all told who have votes. In this connection, would it not be possible to establish one general rule for all our Crown Colonies, and that is, until the native population is sufficiently educated, and is sufficiently developed to have the power of protecting themselves by their own votes, they should have special representation on the Legislative Assemblies, even although the Legislative Assembly does not have responsibility? My hon. and learned Friend the ex-Chief Justice referred to missionary representation. I think that, provided you have a missionary who is really a missionary, and not settler, you will probably do more to protect the natives of the country than you can do even by having a High Commissioner. The best High Commissioner, perhaps, they have ever had in Kenya was driven out of that Colony because he was too pro-native. Conditions there were made impossible for him. The Governors there tried to keep their end up, but the pressure of the entire European population of a colony can be too much for a Governor, and certainly can be much too much for a Native Commissioner. I do not know how you can protect the natives in Kenya to-day. Possibly, if you had a Governor made of iron, you might get real protection and the development of the natives, but no one knows better than the hon. Gentleman how difficult it is. You place the man, in whom you have the most confidence, in a society where everybody he meets pushes in the same direction, thousands of miles away from here, where letters and telegrams have little effect, and you expect him to maintain the attitude which hon. Members would wish him to maintain.

Sir J. NORTON-GRIFFITHS: You have a very strong man in Sir Robert Coryndon.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: I do not think so. The hon. and gallant Gentleman will remember that when he made his opening speech to the Convention he said, remember, I am a South African, and
not a politician." That seems to me to be a confession which gives away the whole position.

Sir J. NORTON-GRIFFITHS: He was South African born.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: I would sooner have an English-born man, or somebody who had been born and bred in the tradition of the Colonial Office even—born and bred in the traditions of fairness to all men and justice to natives—than a man born in South Africa. I pass from that, and come to the settlement to which we have been referred. I noticed that the hon. Gentleman spoke all the rest of his speech, and made it very well, but when he came to East Africa, he read it, and I quite understand that. He and I know perfectly well that this settlement is not a settlement which can be supported in any assembly which considers justice, and I think he knows it is not a settlement which can permanently be tolerated in East Africa. The settlement may satisfy the European settlers, because it is a surrender to them, but you can never expect it to satisfy Indians so long as those Indians are expected to be members of the British Empire. That is the real difficulty. I say it is a surrender, and I am afraid it is even a worse surrender than I expected, because I did not expect there would be this re-opening of the immigration question. Unfortunately, he and I know full well that the immigration question is one which, if left to the Governor and public opinion in Kenya, would be used, just as the whole of the legislation of that Colony has been used up to now, in order to keep out the Indian, to exacerbate this racial struggle, which has done so much harm to Kenya. Here is one of those confidential despatches which seem always to be made public when they get to Kenya. It is from the Colonial Office to Kenya:

IMMIGRATION BILL.

I have satisfied myself after prolonged personal discussion with the Secretary of State for India that the passing of the strengthened Bill at the present stage would bring about the immediate rupture of negotiations with the Government of India and entail grave damage to Imperial interests both in India and in several portions of the Colonial Empire. Nevertheless, you will understand that I do regard a strengthened immigration law of general application as an essential part of general settlements.

The fact is that this settlement has not been a settlement dictated by reason, but a surrender to force. Only nine months ago, after endless discussion, after hearing every point of view put ad nauseam, we got the Wood-Winterton settlement. That Wood-Winterton settlement was, to my mind, a sort of settlement to which the British Government, having regard to the possibilities of the development and the future of the British Empire, could honestly set their hands. I do not attach any importance to the Highlands question, because I believe people who want to sell their land in the Highlands will soon be only too glad to have as many purchasers as possible. But the real difficulty solved by the agreement was the uniting of all citizens in Kenya, coloured as well as white, on one uniform roll. That was the one point in which every Indian, not merely in Kenya, was vitally interested. That statement went out to Kenya, and the "Times" correspondent sent the following from Nairobi on receipt of the instructions from the Colonial Office:
Sir Robert Coryndon is instructed that the terms must be regarded as only subject to minor adjustments, but he has decided to submit the despatch to the Executive Council.
He submitted his despatch to the Executive Council. He did what I suppose any man of that sort would do. He attempted to satisfy the people on the spot by making objections to the settlement which he was ordered to carry out. While the discussion went on, the whole of Kenya was boiling with the agitation, and presently we had the usual threats of secession from the Empire. Plans were got out to kidnap the Governor—why, I could never make out—plans were got out to replace all the Government officials, and appeals were made to South Africa. This was one of the Resolutions passed at a public meeting in the Nyanza Province:
It having come to our knowledge that a despatch has recently been received from the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies proposing to give the Asiatic community equal political rights with the European Colonists, we, the European settlers of Songhor, Muhoroni, Koru and Port Ternan in public meeting here assembled, protest in the most emphatic manner possible against any attempt to enforce such preposterous proposals. Should any-such attempt be made, we, realising that
we have exhausted every constitutional method to prevent such a catastrophe, hereby pledge ourselves to "—
etc., etc., and that was coming from, I suppose, practically the whole of the settlers of Kenya.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I want to make it quite clear that the Under-Secretary of State has no power to send a telegram to Kenya, and has never sent one.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: I hope I did not suggest that it came from the Under-Secretary, but from the Colonial Office.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I thought I had better make it clear.

7.0 P.M

Colonel WEDGWOOD: This protest was just the ordinary form signed by everyone present at these meetings, and it was a threat of direct action, with which we are so often charged here, that made the Government reconsider their position. They were effectively brought to their knees by 9,000 settlers, and there is not a word about that in the Report which we are now discussing. Reading that Report, you would imagine that the conclusion come to by the Government had been come to after earnest consideration of what was right. Not a bit of it. It was come to after earnest consideration of the possibility of sending the Guards to Nairobi. Would it not have been simpler in dealing with these people not to have taken seriously their threats of force? Secession from the British Empire cannot be done by a small force. Secession is not likely to remain for long very popular among any section of British citizens. The whole fact of the matter is that this agitation has been got up by a small clique of people who, by beating the big drum, have got a lot of people behind them, but when it comes to actual fighting and marching on the King's African Rifles, when it comes to seizing the Government and the officials, I think you will find that there is not quite so vital a spark about the whole thing. This agitation is on one point only. It is on the question of the common roll of the electors. The Indians say they will not have a separate roll, under which they will be considered to be a C3 branch of the British Empire, but a common roll of common equal citizenship. They say this puts them in a permanently inferior position. It is a social
slur rather than a political disability. They are content to have them in a permanently inferior position. It is a social slur rather than a political disability. They are content to have educational qualifications; they were content that they should be expected to be able to speak English, they were content that they should have property qualifications which would rule out the vast mass of the population, but they said, "Let some of us in on equal terms with the whites, just to show that the British Empire stands for unity of all members of the British Empire." You may say it is sentiment, but it is sentiment that plays and is likely to play a large part in the development of the British Commonwealth.
Consider the difference between ourselves and France. We are having trouble all over our coloured Empire. France sits comfortably in Algiers she sits tight in Morocco, she sits tight in Tunis, and in Senegal, and there is never a word of trouble. Does that show that the Government is better, that there is more justice or more equity or less corruption there? Not a bit of it. It is because there is no colour bar. There is no distinction between the two races. A coloured man sits for Martinique in the French Chamber of Deputies. The people are proud of France, they become part of it. Because of 9,000 settlers in Kenya you are not to allow the people of the British Empire to have the same unity. That is the tragedy. If I were to advise my Kenya Indian friends what to do about the settlement, I would say to them, "Accept it. It is all you can get, and all you can expect. Do not suppose that you have got justice. It is not your business any longer. Take the five seats and elect your men. Put on men who will stand up for your rights. Do not adopt the silly policy of non-co-operation which has ruined the political situation in India. Get on the Council and carry on. The struggle is not yours. The struggle is now between the people of india and the people of Great Britain, a much bigger problem." The repercussion of this decision on India will be tragic. I do not believe that any step has ever been taken so disastrous to the British Empire since Lord North drove the American colonists out of the British Commonwealth.
Cannot hon. Members see what this means? Do they not see it is a slap in
the eye, after the declaration of the Imperial Conference two years ago, after everything that was said by hon. Members, by Prime Ministers, and ex-Prime Ministers about equal rights within the British Empire. They do it because they are afraid of 9,000 settlers? Good heavens, it is not only that henceforth you set up two different categories of British citizens. That is bad enough, but you do it because you are afraid. Is there a corner in India where they will not know why the British Empire assented to this unjust settlement? There will be people in India who will not be sad about this settlement. It will be a tragedy to many of our friends, but do not forget that no people will rejoice more in this settlement than the enemies of England. That is what this Government has done. It is not easy, when a step like this has once been taken, ever to put it right, but I am certain the party I have the honour to speak for to-night, when their turn comes, will do their best. I cannot say more than that, because heaven knows what the repercussion of this will be before that time. But we will do our best to re-establish justice and fair play throughout the British Empire and put an end to what is ruining our chance of real peace and development.
I am sorry I must also say a word about Ceylon. The Cingalese have got their Constitution, but we are in considerable doubt about what the Constitution is. The Government has one view, and the Governor has another. Which will win I do not know. There are six different communities in Ceylon, and the peculiarity about this Constitution is, that the people who have been pressing most for communal representation are the Indians in Ceylon. How they have ever been betrayed into this fatal course I cannot say, I can only say that the settlement will, apparently, satisfy everybody except the Cingalese. From our point of view, we are not interested in the quarrels of the Cingalese and the Tamils. As long as they continue to keep at each other's throats, they will not get a better Constitution than this, but what we are interested about in this particular Constitution, is the fact that the peasants and the coolies have no votes in it. The people who have got the vote and who will administer the country will look after their own communal
interests, but the unfortunate coolies, I who form the bulk of the labourers in the plantations of Ceylon, and the peasants, who are the best of the people in Ceylon, who have had votes for local option, time after time, and who have exercised that vote in putting down all sales of liquor, will not have votes for the Ceylon Legislature. That must be left to the people who are better off.

Mr. MILNE: Is the hon. and gallant Member aware what the franchise means in Ceylon? At the present moment it is £40 a year.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: Hardly a single coolie will get the vote; hardly a single Cingalese peasant will get the vote. They will be practically disfranchised, and I am asking that they should have nominated representatives on the Council. It seems to me that this is one of the cases in point where, when you give self-government, you must look after the interests of people who are unable to take part in it. For that reason, I beg the Government to consider that point of view. In Burma 3,000,000 people, who are not so civilised as the Cingalese, have been enfranchised. These people have got the best constitution among the whole of our Colonial possessions. Ceylon, which is also Buddhist and which is about 300 years older in civilisation than the Burmese, get a constitution such as this. I do not think it is any credit to the Colonial Office that they should have given that sort of constitution. It would have been far better to have given the Burmese type of constitution holus bolus to the people of Ceylon. That would have given them a chance of responsibility and of education in responsible government. That is too late now, but even now the Government might do something to make it clear that communal representation is only temporary and that, as soon as the Tamils and the Cingalese can put an end to it, they will be able to rejoice in a settlement which will be worthy of Ceylon.

Mr. BANKS: There are few things more surprising to a new-comer to this House than the amount of time we allot to positively parochial affairs on the one hand and to questions of gigantic Imperial importance on the other. Two days were allotted to the discussion of
the affairs of India, though one day only was originally allowed, and this afternoon we are perhaps to make a pronouncement which will affect the destinies of millions of persons throughout the habitable globe. As I listened to the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, a strange verse from the Bible came into my head. It was
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision,
and I suppose in the course of this evening we shall settle the affairs of these multitudes in rather less time than we are accustomed to allot to settling the salaries of, say, a few school teachers, or the borrowing powers of a few local authorities. Such, however, are the conditions under which it pleases Parliament, here in Westminster assembled, to deal with the nations for whose welfare it is responsible. Before I approach the question of the settlement of Kenya, may I offer one criticism on some of the observations that fell from the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir R. Hamilton). He complains that in the past the legislation in Kenya has been selfish legislation, passed by the settlers to their own advantage. It is rather curious that that should be the case, considering that up to the present time there has been an official majority in the Legislative Council, and, if that legislation has been selfish, it must have been the fault of the Colonial Office. The second subject he complained about was that, out of about a million sterling raised in taxation, only the sum of £20,000 was allotted to the education of the African natives. I think he must have forgotten that there are other calls upon the revenue of Kenya than that of education. There is the medical service. There is the benefit the African natives derive from the railways. There is the policing of the native districts, and the administration of justice in Kenya Colony. There are sometimes even pensions to be paid to those who have been engaged in administration in Kenya Colony in the past. All these are claims upon the revenue of the Colony that you have to take into account when you are considering what sums can be spent upon African education.
I have read the numerous pamphlets to which reference has been made on both
sides of this controversy. I have read the judgment that His Majesty's Government have pronounced. I have tried in this matter to use my own common sense. How it will be accepted by the colonists or by the Indian representatives, I do not know, for it does not concern me, but I do think that I shall be expressing the opinion of a considerable number of Members on this side of the Committee when I express my satisfaction with the general outlines of the settlement which His Majesty's Government has made. The hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Ly me (Colonel Wedgwood) said that many of his friends in India would be disappointed, and that many of the enemies of this country would rejoice. I can hardly believe that to be the case, since to my knowledge the hon. Gentleman's friends there are mainly recruited from those who are the enemies of this country. While I express general approval of the settlement—

Colonel WEDGWOOD: What did you do in the Great War, anyway?

Mr. BANKS: I was referring to the hon. and gallant Gentleman's friends, not to his performances, nor to mine. But I had the privilege and the opportunity of joining His Majesty's Forces as a private in August, 1914, and I served in India; that is why I know something about his friends and about the enemies of this country.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: You must have made some.

Mr. BANKS: There are three points on which I desire to express my gratification—and I think other hon. Members share it. The first is that His Majesty's Government have been firm enough—and if I may say so with modesty—wise enough to resist certain demands from the Indian representatives in this case, demands which can only be described as exorbitant. In the second place, the Government has kept the pledges which were made to the colonists, and which have been abundantly ratified by successive administrations, upon which these colonists have taken their stand, and upon the security on which they have made their homes and invested their capital in Kenya Colony. In the third place, although because of what I agree is a wise estimate of the present state of affairs, the Government has not seen its way to concede to Kenya which it has conceded to Rhodesia, yet it
has not deprived the settlers there of the hope to which, in my humble opinion, they are entitled, that in the fullness of time, as the resources of the Colony develop, they may hope to arrive at the end of that stage along which they have already proceeded some distance from the status of a protectorate to the status of a Crown Colony, and finally a self-governing Dominion, as Rhodesia now is in a position to be.
There has been, as one hon. Gentleman said, a good deal of propaganda on both sides. I think we must assume that the case for the Indians is summarised finally in the memorial which they presented to the Prime Minister. I say that their demands are exorbitant. Their aims are based on statements which are untrue, and their aims are very much more ambitious than they are ready to confess. First of all they say the subject
is already the cause of grave discontent in India and a strong weapon in the hands of the natives whose object it is to decry and destroy the British connection.
It is only the persons who so decry and destroy the British connection who feel any substantial discontent. I am persuaded that the discontent is felt only amongst political agitators in India and that the enormous mass of the 350,000,000 persons there will feel less excitement over this than they felt over the Salt Tax, and that was precious little indeed. Secondly, they say that
this is a violation of a series of Proclamations beginning with Charles II and ending with George V.
"I am not prepared to extend my historical researches quite as far back as the Merry Monarch, but I think he was probably more occupied with Lady Castlemaine than with the state of affairs in Kenya Colony.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: The rising hope of the Tory party‡

Mr. BANKS: Nobody who investigates these proclamations impartially and carefully can come to any other conclusion than that they were never intended to apply outside India. In the second place, the Proclamations are definitely qualified and limited by the aptitude of the Indians for political life. If you are going to take the wider view contended for by the Indian Delegation it would make nonsense of the thing, because
their claims would be at variance with the facts. What are the facts? These Indians are asking to have throughout the Dominions political power which they do not yet enjoy in India itself. The Indian Electorate is a mere fraction of the entire population of the country, and that is because the percentage of persons in the entire population of the country who have sufficient intelligence to be electors is absolutely insignificant. Out of, I think, in British India, 250,000,000 persons, there are only 5,000,000 electors, and few of these had sufficient interest or sufficient comprehension to record their votes at the last election.
We come to the question of the franchise. What is the franchise? It is the Communal franchise, and the reason why it is that is this: because a Mohammed an cannot represent a Hindu nor can a Hindu represent a Mohammedan. Then how, in the name of all that is reasonable, are we to suggest that either of them, in these circumstances, could ever represent a European? That is why in a place like Kenya you must have a communal franchise like that of India. But these gentlemen go further, and they base their claim to perfect social and political equality on the services of India in the War. It is a good thing they do not say too much about the services of Indians in Kenya. Out of a population of 20,000Indians in Kenya, 1,383 joined the forces, and of these 376 were combatants. Nobody was killed. Nobody was wounded. Nobody died of wounds, but five were executed for treachery. That was the contribution of Kenya to the War. Of course the memorial goes further than that, and they ask the House to consider the services of the Punjabis, the Sikhs, and the other Indian races who fought all over the world. These were—

Colonel WEDGWOOD: Has the hon. and learned Member ever heard of the Indian troops in East Africa?

Mr. BANKS: Yes, certainly, I was about to come to that, and refer to the distinguished services rendered by the regular Indian Army.

Mr. J. HOPE SIMPSON: May I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman where he got that list as to the number of killed and wounded, and the particulars of the five men executed for treachery?

Mr. BANKS: It has been recorded in the Press. [Interruption, and HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw‡"] I do not mean to withdraw what I have said. It has never been challenged and I am perfectly convinced it is accurate. If anyone challenges the statement, they can state their grounds for so doing. When we come to the question of the regular Indian soldiers to whom reference has been made, we find they have served all over the world, and I am convinced that they are perfectly satisfied with the service, pay, and pensions they get. If it was suggested that these Indian soldiers who actually served in the Army should have some special political privileges accorded to them I would not particularly object, but it is the persons who did least in India—as elsewhere—and just as in this country ‡—people who supported the conscientious objectors, and organised strikes against munitions, who are now most sentimental about the ex-service men, and say that those in India who did nothing whatever should reap the reward of the valour of those who fell. [Interruption.]

Mr. LANSBURY: We will take the old men first next time.

Mr. BANKS: It is on these grounds that claims to political equality in Kenya are being pressed. The third claim is that they were pioneers and commenced to make the colony what it is. That is a monstrous and preposterous claim—
Made the colony what it is.
We are all well aware there were Indian traders who settled long ago on the coast strip still the territory of the Sultan of Zanzibar—many years before the white man. How did they settle? As pioneers of the development of the resources of the country? Did they really penetrate into the Hinterland among the fighting tribes? No. They were there as the jackals of the Arab slave trader. That is abundantly established by the despatches of the Consul-General at Zanzibar to the late Lord Salisbury. Thirty years ago, in 1888, Colonel Euan Smith, writing home, said:
The trade in arms and ammunition is at present entirely in the hands of the British Indian subjects. It is through these British India merchants that the Arabs and chiefs in the interior are supplied with all these arms and ammunition.
There is abundant evidence to the same effect. They were never given to real pioneer work. Can hon. Gentlemen opposite give me one case? In the year 1900 there was not one Indian in Ukamba, which is the centre of the Kenya Colony. We know that the reason there are so many Indians in Kenya is on account of the influx of coolies working upon the railways. The railway was built by British capital, under British surveyors, by British enterprise, and if they are to claim that they have opened up the country by building the railway in Kenya, I suppose we shall have the compositor who sets up in type the speech of the Prime Minister claiming credit for the composition of the speech‡ All these facts or statements of facts—which are false—are those upon which the Indians claim to outvote the European and inundate the lands on which he has settled. Let me examine that proposition and see whether it is established. It may be true that at the present time there are very few Indians in Kenya who could pass the test of a necessary property or educational qualification which might be imposed. Perhaps half the Indians there are British Indians. I should say as many have come from Native States as from British India: they do not exercise the franchise in their own country. Of the other half how many do you suppose are domiciled in Kenya?
When hon. Members allude to the Resolution of the Imperial Conference of 1921, which repeats the Resolution of 1918, they should remember that it only proposes equal political rights to those Indians who are domiciled there. That is quite a different thing to giving it to birds of passage who come out perhaps to lend money or sell grain. There cannot be more than about 1,000 domiciled Indians there altogether. Do you suppose that those at the back of this agitation are going to be content with that? Not for a moment. Mr. Disai, a supporter of Gandhi, approved of the boycott of the Duke of Connaught's tour, and do you suppose that his ambitions are going to be limited to the enfrandisement of a few Indians in Kenya? Mr. Jeevanjee in 1919 said:
I would go so far as to advocate the annexation of this Kenya territory with Provisional Government under the Indian Viceroy. Let it be opened to us, and in a very few years it will be a second India.
That is a far more ambitious design. On this point let me call in the evidence of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. He was a member of the Standing Joint Committee in 1921, which considered the despatch from the Indian Government upon the question of the reforms, and he said:
We feel that the grant to Indians in Kenya of equal rights might lead to the absorption in due course of the whole Government of the Colony, and in fact this was quite definitely suggested as being their ultimate aim by witnesses claiming to speak on behalf of Indian opinion.
Predominance and not equality is their claim based on a fabrication, and let mo tell the hon. and gallant Member for New-castle-under-Lyme that all this is backed by threats. What an appalling attitude of impertinence under these circumstances for the Colonists to say that they would leave the Empire‡ But this document further says:
If India cannot depend, to the fullest extent, on the good faith of the Imperial Government in fulfilling the pledges given from the Throne, and protecting with that compromise the rights of Indians as equal subjects of the King Emperor, her interest in the Imperial connection ceases to exist. For, on such conditions, there is clearly no self-respecting future for India within the British Empire.
Even if their improvements were limited to political equality I should demur to that because I think hon. Gentlemen opposite make one mistake and it is a grave one when talking about political equality. They assume that there is such a thing as an Indian race, but that is a myth and there is not an Indian race. There are dozens of races in India all different in religion, culture, and language and in everything else that sets a gulf between one man and another.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: I hope I differ from you.

Mr. BANKS: On this point I think I can leave myself to the judgment of hon. Members of this House, because that is a statement of such an elementary truth that anybody who contradicts it only exposes his own ignorance. That is one of the reasons why you have to have a communal franchise in India, because these different races are incapable of understanding one another or representing one another, and when they meet, with the assistance of the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme, to chatter
sedition, then they have to address one another in English, because they cannot understand one another's tongue. Upon this question of political equality it may be that you get in the highest type of Indian a man who, intellectually and spirtually, may be the superior of the Englishman. Many of my own Indian friends are men of the highest possible intelligence. [An hon. Member: "Your Friend‡"] Yes, I commanded Indian troops for two years, and I had amongst them some friends who would be prepared to die for me, as well as to talk for me, or vote for me.
While I am prepared to admit that many of those men are spiritually and intellectually the superiors of many of those who call themselves civilised over here—[An HON. MEMBER: "Over there‡"]—I am not speaking of any particular quarter of the House, and hon. Members may classify according to their own caprice. The most enlightened type of Indian may be our equal or superior in intelligence and spirituality, but he is not our equal in political experience. When Chatham, Burke, Fox, and Pitt adorned this House, India was politically in the age of the Heptarchy, but because a few thousand Indians have swallowed our political formulas—which is giving them indigestion—that does not mean that every Indian Bunnia who can pass an examination is on the political level of the European.
Let us get rid of phrases and grasp the truth. When I see these apostles in equality in India associating with the untouchables, and having a drink with the sweeper, then and not until then, will I begin to believe in their sincerity. With regard to the reservation of the Highlands, it has not been seriously discussed and is res judicata. It has been amply argued in the White Paper, and it is sufficient to say that these Indians who are said to be anxious about going to this part of the Colony probably are not anxious because they really want to live there, but simply because they want to assert the right to do so. That right you cannot admit unless you are prepared to admit that the people who first colonise and develop a district are to have no special privilege in return for their enterprise over those who may flow in afterwards by petty trade and commerce, and reap the fruits of the efforts made by others.
With regard to representation, my first criticism is that I cannot see why the Government has added one more Indian member to the Legislative Council. I do not know why the Indians should have five members, except it is done on the principle of the nervous bridge-player who was asked whether he discarded from weakness or strength, and he said he discarded from fright. There does not seem to me to be any other particular reason. Take the case of the Arabs. There are 10,000 Arabs all domiciled in Kenya, and originally they were the dominant people there. They have to be content with one elected member and one nominated member on the Council. The Indians are to be accorded five representatives, not because they are more important, but because they are more importunate. The document from which I have been reading further states that
Indians have nothing to learn in matters of personal cleanliness and hygiene and sanitary habits from the West.
Those who formed their opinions of Indians from a visit to Battersea may believe that, but those who have lived a little while in Benares will not believe it. Those Members who have served in India may have seen the cholera and the plague in India, and they know that those diseases are endemic in the native city. In India Indians and ourselves always live as much apart as we can, but of necessity a certain proximity is unavoidable and many have paid for that proximity by the loss of a child or a wife. In India we have our duty to do and we have to face those things, and facing cholera and plague is part of it, but if the Europeans of Kenya protest that it is no part of their duty to expose themselves to such dangers, I have a great deal of sympathy with them.
These gentlemen are determined to be insulted, and it is part of the same old strategy to ask for what they know is an impossible thing, and then say that their loyalty depends upon our compliance with their demands This is not a question of superiority or inferiority; it is not even a question of equality. You are not only trying to make men equal but identical, and they are not identical. All the habits of the Indians are so different to the habits of Europeans that it is almost impossible for them to live
happily together. It is simply a question f inability to like the same thing. The fragrance of Ghi is usually abominable to English nostrils. And on the other hand the Englishman likes a joint of roast pork, and considers that it is delicious, but the same dish is an abomination to the Indian. How can the man who hates Ghi and the man who hates Pork be happy in the same street? They are not separated by walls and fences as they are in England. Why do Englishmen in India send their children over to this country about the age of six years? Simply because a child of six in India is generally made familiar with things which we only tell our children here at the age of 16. They cannot play together. They cannot be happy together. Therefore, say what you like, segregation must, in fact, take place, not because we want to quarrel with one another, but because we want to get on well together. It is the point of contact that is the point of friction. So long as he lives in his own way and so long as we do the same we can love one another, but if we are to be forced to live together hugger-mugger it can lead to nothing but bad blood and further ill-feeling. I wish the Government had recognised that explicitly in the clause upon segregation instead of putting it into Regulations about sanitation, buildings and police, which are likely to prove equally, if not more, troublesome than if the principle had been recognised straighforwardly.
I want to refer to a remark which fell from the lips of the Under-Secretary for the Colonies. He said, and well said, that to avoid racial animosity in the Empire is of the utmost importance. Of course it is, but if it is going to be suggested that the best way of avoiding animosity in the Empire is to say that the race which made the Empire shall not stand on any higher level than any other race in it then I must humbly demur. The hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme said he had had a conversation with some publicist who had been indecent enough to say, "I stand by my race." I make no apology for doing that in this House, or for ranging myself alongside that publicist. India is one of our achievements. Let hon. Members who dissent from that statement read their history. Never mind the root of
our title. Circumstances took us there. What have we done there?

Mr. LANSBURY: Loot‡

Mr. BANKS: What is India to-day? When all is said and done, it is a well-governed country with a prosperous people on the high road to that autonomy which we have promised and which we shall give, and which we have given it the education and opportunity to achieve. Of course, I know that my point of view will not coincide with the point of view of hon. Gentlemen opposite. Theirs is a very simple one. It has the merit of simplicity. It is that wherever you find the British colonist, the British soldier, or the British official you must assume that he is necessarily narrow-minded and selfish if not brutal and false. I noticed in his speech an hon. Member suggested that Sir Robert Coryndon, because he took the side of the settlers was a bad Governor. He said he was a South African rightly or wrongly, and his point of view was the point of view of the Colonists of Kenya; therefore the hon. Gentleman condemned him and wants in his place a gentleman of vast experience of native tribes and questions which can only be acquired in Downing Street.
Is it not rather ridiculous that because some hon. Members opposite choose to refer to our rational ensign as a dirty rag, we should be expected to assume an apologetic manner whenever we refer to the achievements of our race? I do not say that our race is impeccable. No race is, but you can travel the world over, and wherever you find that disparaged rag flying you will find mere prosperity, more humanity and more enlightened government than you will find in any other quarter of the globe. If our record is not stainless, it is yet unrivalled among the Empires of the world, and I have no apology to offer either for my pride in its past or for my confidence in its future. The days when arrogance and self-satisfaction were our national failings are past. They have been succeeded (hon. Members opposite have seen to it that they should), by a habit of disparaging and belittling all British ideas. That is not true chivalry. It is mere political perversity. The danger in the future is not too much self confidence but too little: not too much pride, but of being ashamed of something of which we have no reason to be ashamed. If I may, I will con-
clude my speech, in antique fashion, with a quotation from a poet—
We sailed wherever a ship could sail,
We founded many a mighty State,
God grant our greatness may not fail
From craven fears of being great.

Mr. CHARLES ROBERTS: I dare say the Government are grateful to the hon. and learned Member who has just spoken
for his support, but I am rather doubtful whether the Under-Secretary for the Colonies is very grateful for the language in which he conveyed that support, and I shall be very much surprised indeed if the Under Secretary for India was very gratified by some of the language which he used. The learned ex-Justice of Kenya (Sir R. Hamilton), in an earlier speech, began by saying we ought to make an attempt in this Debate to try and understand the point of view of the other side. I do not think the hon. and learned Gentleman who has just spoken made any approach to that in his little niggling debating points, or by showing in that spirit of true British Philistinism that he is incapable of understanding the British Indians and their characteristics. There is only one sense in which I support the policy of segregation. I think hon. Members who are afflicted by race consciousness to the extent that the hon: and learned Gentleman is had far better have nothing whatever to do with India, with Indian questions, or with the Indian people. There are some people who are taken that way by colour and race prejudice, and the best one can hope for them is that they will live in a racial pen by themselves and leave these difficult and delicate question uninflamed by their observations. I think it was General Gordon who said that the first secret in government was to try and get into the other man's skin. I do not detect the faintest sign in the speech of the hon. and learned Member of any attempt to do that.
I think that to a discussion of this kind we ought really to devote the whole day. We have the Under-Secretary for the Colonies surveying the world—surveying the Colonial Empire from Jamaica to Fiji, and devoting perhaps a quarter of an hour to each Continent. There is a vast mass of questions which have to be dealt with together. It is unfortunate
but there is one consolation in the matter that it does bring home to us that this Kenya guestion is one which has to be discussed in the light of the Empire and of the whole Imperial position, and that it is not a separate question by itself. It raises any number of Imperial problems, it affects our Imperial position in Africa and in India itself, and when all is said and done the British Empire is a great deal larger than Kenya and there is more to be considered than the interests of 10,000 European settlers, of 2,000,000 Africans, and of 20,000 Indians. I am afraid I have several points to put before the Under-Secretary before I deal with the Kenya question, in the first place I venture to think we are getting, in our administration of the opium question, out of touch with the best and most enlightened opinion on the subject. We have the Americans pressing us to curtail our production of opium in India to strictly medicinal and quasi-medical requirements, but at places like Singapore we find the authorities raising 37 per cent. of their income from opium, and in the Malay States they are raising nearly as much I hope the Under-Secretary for the Colonies will consider how far he can restrict this production, and at any rate stop opium smoking, which is condemned by everyone. I am quite certain a great-deal more ought to be done, but I merely mention the matter now as I know many other hon. Members wish to speak and I do not desire to trespass too long on the attention of the House.
8.0 P.M
Then I also want to join in the congratulations to the Under-Secretary upon his Rhodesian settlement. I have no great enthusiasm for prolonged litigation. We did point out the dangers of a compromise. We were anxious to make it clear that it should be a settlement which should not lead to new points
involving commissions or further litigation. I do not think it is too onerous for the British taxpayer, considering what we get out of it. I hope the Secretary of State, now that he has got the reserves of native land under his own control, will provide ample reserves for the Africans, and give them some chance, also, of purchasing land outside the reserves, at all events to some extent. In addition to that, I would suggest that it might be well to set up some kind of land board or commis-
sion—I do not mean merely a commission which would watch over transfers and see that titles to African land were kept in proper order, but a commission which would study the best method of developing native lands and native production thereon. I think there used to be a feeling, certainly in India, that it was best not to interfere with the hereditary habits of the native cultivator, and that improvements were impossible; but we have got far away from that now. I think that, if we do not ask for too much, if we do not expect too great advances in machinery, if we go slowly and are content to proceed gradually step by step, a considerable amount can be done in the development of native production.
With reference to the Rhodesian question, I hope that the principle laid down in Rhodesia will be kept in regard to the native franchise, and I think that franchise might well be extended to the rest of the African territories. I also want to put it to the Government that the principle of nominating an unofficial representative to look after the interests of native Africans on the Legislative Council is one that might well be considered. Such representative might be a missionary, or someone with some special interest in the welfare of the Africans. With regard to West Africa, I agree with a good deal of what was said by the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) about the export duties, though I do not think I would commit myself to countersigning all the hon. and gallant Member's figures. Some of them were rather illustrative than accurate, and I do not want to push the matter too far. I do not think that these export duties can be said to have strangled production, but I do think they have hampered and checked production. I think we can be satisfied with the progress that has been made in West Africa, and I look forward to the development of these tropical countries as one of the sources from which a new accumulation of wealth may come, both to those countries and to the world at large.
It has been said by some that, with the enormous National Debt that we have at present, we have no such advantage as we had after the Napoleonic Wars when the industrial revolution came. That is partly true, but there is this chance of developing these tropical countries, and I do not think that any system ought to
be allowed to develop which will interfere with the production by native Africans on their own land of the products of the country, which we can use as raw materials for our manufactures here. That is a development which would be good for the world at large and for the Africans themselves. I must not go into all the details now, but these duties require a great deal of consideration. I must guard myself against being supposed to think that the only alternative is the development of a new revenue from spirits. I do not in the least agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme on that point. I should have no objection to the matter being inquired into, but the Convention of St. Germain, which prohibited trade spirits, is a lowering of the standard set up for the mandated territories under the Covenant of the League of Nations, and, if we are still further to lower it, to weaken our policy, and find a new revenue by encouraging the importation of gin or other spirits into these countries, it will be very little satisfaction, to my mind, to abolish the export duties in order to get that result. I think you can secure the abolition of the export duties, or, at any rate, their curtailment by 50 per cent., by economies in the Colonies concerned. I cannot believe that when, in one Colony the expense of administration has risen from £2,300,000 to £7,000,000, there is not a real chance for a campaign of economy which would enable that to be done, and I believe that that is the policy which has been asked for by the Chambers of Commerce.
I was very much interested in what the Undersecretary said about the development of education. Anyone who knows how much has been done for the negroes in the Southern States of America through the influence of the Hampton experiment will welcome everything that the hon. Gentleman says, and I hope that we may anticipate great results from that. It is very difficult to speak on the subject of Kenya without the possibility that one may do a certain amount of harm. I thought that a good deal of what was said by the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme was only pouring a little oil on the flames, and I was rather sorry to see that he could not, apparently, resist the temptation of making
some party capital out of the situation as he saw it. I do not think it is very wise that we should lay much stress here on wild language which has been used, or extravagant demands which have been made, on one side or the other. In the calmer atmosphere which must, surely, have been induced by all the conferences that have been going on, where each side has been able to put its point of view, and where each side, at all events, has been heard, one would have hoped that there would have emerged some settlement which might, perhaps, have satisfied neither side, where neither side might feel that it had got what it would like, but which both sides could work in a common desire to develop the Colony and promote the good of the Empire as a whole. I agree with the ex-Chief Justice of Kenya, the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir E. Hamilton), that at the bottom, so far as the Indian objections are concerned, it is a question of status, a question of the recognition of claims which the Indians think right to put forward. That is, of course, at the bottom of the objection to the communal franchise. I understand that their objection is that it indicates political inferiority of the Indians in the circumstances of the Colony. I realise that, but I cannot help thinking that they overlook two things.
They overlook, first, the weakness of our ordinary electoral system, which in its working may produce a purely capricious result, under which a minority may get no representation whatever. We all know that that happens in the working of our own system at home. If you have a common electoral roll, and the present system of single-member constituencies, you may quite easily get a situation in which a minority gets, not merely unfair representation, but no representation at all. Where you get blocks of population differing in race, each of them demanding as its right some share of the representation, it is impossible for anyone who knows the working of our present electoral institutions to guarantee that there shall be anything like fair representation. You cannot guarantee any representation of minorities at all under our present system, and it cannot be denied that that is what led Indians themselves in India over and over again to demand communal representation. I know and realise this, for, when I was out in India with Mr.
Montagu, one demand after another was pressed by different bodies for communal representation. That was a case which, I am bound to say, the British administrator, accustomed to our political theories, was very reluctant to concede, but the Indians pressed it over and over again on the Government, and got it. When you have the whole Indian polity accepting the principle of communal representation, how can you say, when it is adopted—under different conditions, of course—in Kenya, that the existence of communal representation there is such a vital flaw, such a vicious blot on the whole system that you will not consider the working of a system which includes it. It may be that in Kenya there is a reaction which all Indians do not like, but I am afraid that, when they have pressed that demand under all kinds of conditions in India, it is a little difficult for anyone who knows that development to condemn absolutely and entirely the whole system because the communal system is doubtless theoretically bad.
I have said that I believe that the real Indian difficulty lies in the fact that they feel that they do not get what they asked for—recognition of India's place in the Empire. Take one illustration—the Land Ordinance Act of 1914, which deals with the question of the alienation of land in the Highlands. In the Land Ordinance Act of 1914 it is laid down that you cannot transfer land to anyone not of pure European descent, except with the Governor's sanction. See what that involves for the Indian looking at it from the Indian point of view. It means that you may sell land to a Bulgarian, a Greek, an ex-enemy, but you must not sell land to an Indian. If you look at it from the point of view of the British Indians asking for recognition of their place in the Empire, is not that a kind of sentence in the Statute Book which does violate their natural feelings? There they do not get the recognition of Imperial citizenship which they ask for.
As far as segregation is concerned, I was very sorry to hear what the hon. Member, who spoke last, said. Anyone who knows Indian conditions knows that it is absolutely unnecessary to lay down any policy of segregation. When things settle themselves down, this invidious legal bar would be absolutely out of the
question, and I am very glad that the Government on that point has put its foot down and said that that was impossible. You have somewhat similar conditions in Indian hill stations, such as Ootacamund in the Nilgiris, and no question or demand for segregation has ever been made there, or thought necessary. The thing settles itself, and I think it is a great disaster and a great encouragement to racial ill-feeling that this policy of segregation should ever have been raised.
I do not know what lines the Indians will take on this question of the settlement. I realise that the settlement is. not what they would like. I see many things in it that would challenge their natural prejudices, and where they would feel that their very natural sentiments have been disregarded, but I notice that those who have spoken as their champions,, the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) and the learned Member for the Orkneys (Sir R. Hamilton), although they have looked at the question from different points of view, have both advised the Indians to accept the settlement. The hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme said it was a slap in the eye, but it would be wise for them to accept it. I cannot help thinking that that is wise advice which should be given by those who care for the development of the Indians and sympathise with their aspirations, and desire to see India advancing on the road of self-government.
We know quite well that the Indians cannot be satisfied with this settlement. The Government of India has made its. protest. We are told that it is not satisfied. We could hardly imagine that the Indians for whom the Government of India speaks could regard it with satisfaction, and no one is surprised at that, but I think it would be a mistake, perhaps a fatal mistake, for the Indians not to accept it, under protest, pointing out its effects, and pointing out where it seems to fall short. I would appeal to the Under-Secretary, in his reply or behalf of the Government, to show that he does sympathise with the natural desire of these British Indians to feel themselves not merely members of the Colony, but that they are recognised in the Empire as a whole. The principle of African trusteeship which has been laid down is a right and an admirable one. I trust
that the franchise in future will be open without any colour bar. As the people advance in education the very small numbers who can be admitted to the franchise at present will gradually increase, and I trust that, with the advancing education of the Africans, that their numbers also will increase on the franchise roll. It is in that spirit that I contemplate a settlement which is not by any means what one would have wished, but which is perhaps all that could be obtained at the present time, and which may be accepted by the Indians under protest in this controversy.

Sir JOHN HEWETT: I wish to refer to only two points with regard to the Kenya settlement, namely, the question of the franchise and the question of the Highlands. These two points seem to me to constitute the crux of all the disputes that have been so prolonged between the European settlers and the Indians in Kenya. The claim of the Indian is based in both cases on the principle that there must be equality of status throughout the Empire in the case of every member of the Empire, and that there is no justification in any colony or protectorate for giving the British Indians an inferior status to that of any other member of the Empire. I support the decision of the Government in this case, because I think it is a very reasonable one, based on careful consideration of a very difficult problem. I have too great an affection for India and its people, and I owe India and its people too much, for me to be ready to give my support to any scheme which would, in my opinion, brand them with the stigma of inferiority, and it is because I believe that this settlement does not have that effect that I give it my whole-hearted support.
I differ entirely from the preference expressed by the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) for the common as against the communal franchise in Kenya. I repudiate particularly the assertion which he made that the Government had been driven to support the communal franchise by fear. I believe there is no foundation for that suggestion. I believe that communal franchise can be justified by cold, hard reason, and it is owing to that fact that I give the communal franchise my support over the common franchise. It will take me a little time to give the reasons why I favour the
communal franchise, and I beg the indulgence of the Committee while I attempt to do so. I would draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that the Indian society in Kenya has not within it the gradations which you find in Indian society in India, whether the city, the town, or the village. You find in India representatives of the landowning classes, the cultured and political classes, the merchants who are carrying on business and those who have retired. You find Indians who are fond of sport, and you find large religious societies, with the Pandit priest for the-Hindus, and the Maulavi for the Mahommedans, while in the villages you have a very large agricultural class constituting three-quarters of the whole population, and in the provinces in which I last served in India 66 per cent. of the whole population. These are the men from whom the Indian Army is recruited. They are the men from whom the police are recruited both in India and in other parts of the Dominions. In Kenya you will not find a single Indian agriculturist. You will find a very different society from that to be found in India, You find a commercial class, mainly consisting of very small traders, You find a class of clerks, most of them under five years' agreement, and many of them but resident even in the native States of India, but coming from Portuguese India. You find a number of artisans and carpenters, who form the great majority of the Indian population in Kenya. The great majority of these men have really no desire for a vote at all, and if they went back to India they would not get the vote, and what is more, I firmly believe that the Indians who have been agitating to get them a vote in Kenya would not like them coming back to get the vote.
We have in Kenya 25,000 Indians. 12,500 of them come from British India, 10,000 from the native States and 2,500 Goanese from Portuguese India, Is this the sort of population into which to import common franchise when one does not exist in India at all? In India, there are people who denounce the communal franchise, but the fact remains that opinion is much more strongly in favour of the communal franchise in India now than it ever was, and only the other day, in a discussion on this very
question of the Indian status in Kenya, several Mahommedans and one Sikh in the Legislative Assembly roundly asserted the benefits of communal representation and denounced a Madrassi Brahman who spoke in favour of a common suffrage. I should like to ask whether it is reasonable that any portion of the 10,000 men from the native States of India should be given the franchise as British Indians in Kenya when they will have no franchise at all when they go back. I should also like to ask whether it is reasonable that Indian females who have not yet got the vote in India, though I myself am in favour of the most intellectual of them getting it, and gave evidence to that effect before the Joint Committee of the two Houses on the Reform Bill, should receive a vote in Kenya when they have no vote in India. I should also like to ask why an Indian lady in Kenya of the age of 21 should receive a vote when English women in our own country do not get it until they are 30, which I think is a great shame. For all these reasons I urge that there is a very strong case against a common suffrage in Kenya, and I cannot see that there is any ground whatever for the Indians saying that not to give a common suffrage is equivalent to treating them as inferior people. It is nothing of the kind. They have no right, it seems to me, to claim anything more in Kenya than they have in India, It is very difficult for Indians who regard communal representation in India as absolutely necessary to contend that it is going to be an indignity to have to submit to it in Kenya. There is also, it seems to me, a very strong argument, and one which to my mind settles the whole matter, as regards communal suffrage. The Government has stated that it is its paramount duty to look after the Africans. There are 2,500,000 Africans in Kenya. When they get the vote how on earth are the Europeans and the Indians to be given a vote at all unless they are given it by communal representation? For these reasons I think we should be committing a great mistake if at present, in the present conditions of Kenya, we were to endeavour to stabilise a common vote there.
I turn to the question of the Highlands. I know there is a very general
feeling that the decision of the Government should be accepted, but I should like to give my reasons for thinking that that decision is a thoroughly sound one. The Highlands consist of a large tract at an altitude of from 5,000 to 8,000 feet. They correspond to the country described in India as the hills. The climate of the hills in India is not liked by the ordinary Indian, and residence there is distinctly distasteful. I believe the same is the case in Kenya. The Indian, to my mind, does not wish to be able to purchase land in Kenya in order to cultivate it himself, or to supervise the cultivation of it. He wants to purchase it with the very laudable ambition of making money out of it, and what he resents is that he cannot take advantage of an opportunity of making money. He also thinks it a slight that he cannot buy land where Europeans can, but has he any ground for saying that this is invidious treatment, which implies that he is being treated as an inferior? I think not. In India no European can purchase any land in most of the Indian States, and if there are a few of them in which purchase is permitted to individual Europeans, the process is bound up by so many restrictions that there is really no opportunity of effecting it. If Europeans are subject TO this restriction in India, is it reasonable to say that if you subject the Indians in Kenya to similar restrictions you are treating them as inferiors? The fact is that the Highlands are the only place in which Europeans can live and bring up their children, and can enjoy the domestic life which is so often denied to European settlers in the tropics.
I cannot help thinking that if it had been explained to the Indian population what were the real aims of the Europeans in the Highlands there might have been little or no opposition to this restriction. What the European wants is to have a group of farms nestling in a township where he and his family can go to market, can attend chapel or church, find a hospital in case of illness, obtain education for his children and get most of those amenities of domestic life which he loses if he lives in isolation in a far-off country. If anyone of another race takes a farm within the group, it naturally tends to destroy the harmony and interferes with the objects of the little community. I do not believe that the taking of a farm in the Highlands by
an Indian would cause more trouble than the taking of a farm there by a Greek, of whom there are many in East Africa, and it Has occurred to me that the feelings of the Indians as regards this particular matter might be modified if the order regarding the purchase and transfer of land in the Highlands were somewhat altered so as to limit the land to British holders.
We have got to remember that among these people there are no fewer than 2,500 ex-service men. I believe that this feeling of patriotism is one of the best inducements which could be given to them to carry out in the highlands of East Africa the work which is going a long way to help our Empire in that country. I think that the settlement which has been effected will be accepted by both parties. I dare say that it may not be accepted in its entirety by either of them at first, but I do believe that it will come to be regarded as a good settlement before very long, and that both parties will be able to feel drawn to work together for the advancement of the Empire. It does not cause me much concern that the Government of India have not agreed to this settlement, because I cannot feel, after reading all the papers, that the Government of India have treated this subject in altogether a judicious or judicial manner.
Neither the Indian nor the European settler can pose as the trustee of the African. It is only, I think, in both cases recently that a very active interest in the African has been developed. The Government now announce that the great problem in Kenya is the problem of looking after the African population. I believe that, in the decision which is now come to, there will be nothing to hamper this matter receiving proper consideration and being dealt with in the way in which it should be dealt with. Had either of the parties to this dispute receive their claims in full, there might have been difficulties when the time came to size up the African situation. It has not come yet, but when it does come the Government will be free, whatever party may be in power, to act in the very best way for the African. I feel confident that not only the African, but also all those who have his interests at heart, will feel that the British Government will, when the
time comes, act with justice and equity in the settlement of all matters connected with the African situation. I hope sincerely, now that this decision has been come to, that this Government and successive Governments will retain it intact, so that, when the time comes to solve this great problem in regard to Kenya, there may be found nothing on record as between the Indians and the Europeans which will hamper a settlement of the question.

Sir WILLIAM COTTS: This is my maiden speech, and I claim the usual indulgence of the House. I feel sure that I shall require it all. I want to refer briefly to two matters. The first is emigration and the second is the Imperial Conference. As Member for the Western Isles, I could not let this occasion pass without raising the question of emigration, particularly as upwards of 600 men, women and children have gone from my constituency to Canada since the beginning of this year. Not all went willingly. Many of them went with very bitter feelings in their hearts that the promises made with regard to land settlement had not been fulfilled, and, sick at heart, they got tired waiting and were determined to try their fortune in another land. It is bad for the Empire that they should go with bitterness in their hearts. Even though they may prosper, as they nearly all do, they never forget.
It must not be forgotten that there has always been a large and natural flow of emigration. It is not new. Certain things are responsible for emigration. For instance ambition. This applies not only to those who are thinking of settling in another land, but they also take into consideration the future prospects of their children. In addition, however, they are not directed by sentiment to any particular place, the advantages of all countries being weighed in the balance. In the past, unfortunately, a great many of those who have gone from this country have gone to countries outside the British Empire. Another motive power which has considerable influence is the desire for adventure. In this group there is a very large number of unattached men and women who go away with a view to seeing the world, hoping that one day they will return home again. From this group a very big proportion of our very best settlers is drawn. Then there is the
domestic situation that compels emigration, and from this the greater number of emigrants is drawn. It is this natural expansion that has made the British Empire.
For nearly seven years the War stopped this natural flow, and in spite of the wastage of war our population increased much more rapidly than it did before the War. The increase of population in the Dominions was naturally checked, and it has been calculated that, as a result of the War, the population of the Dominions is about 2,000,000 less and that of the British Isles is about 1,000,000 more than it otherwise would have been. Before the War, about 500,000 people, at least, left this country every year. This was about the natural increase of population, and has been reduced by about one-fifth. Owing to the fact that about 1,000 people per day come to a workable age in this country, and to the amount of unemployment now existing, it means that unless some course is taken to keep the population at a normal number our difficulties will grow instead of diminishing. Immigration within the Empire seems to be the only natural and logical remedy for this state of affairs. It has been said that this country is a fine one to live in, but there are others within the Empire better adapted for making a living.
No one desires to see his relatives and friends leave these shores, but, taking the situation as it is to-day, it surely is better to maintain one's spirit of independence, and to take advantage of the facilities that are being offered for migration to other parts of the Empire, than to wait for the slow process of trade recovery at home. I know there are two sides to the problem—the home and the Imperial side. As regards the home side, I cannot now discuss the shortcomings of our attempts to relieve unemployment by land settlement and by the development of our latent resources. I merely mention it to show that in dwelling on the Imperial side I do not lose sight of the other responsibility. Recently the various Dominions have made agreements with the Overseas Committee regarding assisted passages. Australia, New Zealand, and Canada have all entered into certain arrangements with a view to
permanent settlement. Land is the chief asset which our friends beyond the seas have to offer, and no man with so-called land hunger need go without if he be willing to work. As I have stated, I have had some direct experience of emigration to Canada, and I felt it my duty to ascertain what provision was being made in regard to my constituents. I can testify to the great trouble taken by the Dominion Government of Canada and by the Government of Ontario.
The other subject to which I wish to refer is the Imperial Conference, which will assemble in London in the autumn. It is impossible to attach too much importance to this Conference. It concerns the lives and development, directly and indirectly, of about 18,000,000 white people in the self-governing Dominions of the British Empire. Its progress during the last generation has been phenomenal, and proves conclusively what an extraordinary thing the British Constitution really is, and how capable it is of accommodating itself to changing conditions. The Imperial Conference is the Council of the Cabinets of the Empire, without either legislative or executive power; yet it works and produces most valuable results, both in legislation and in administration, throughout the British Empire. Its benefits can be seen in such various subjects as defence, foreign affairs, postal and telegraphic communication, transport facilities, Empire settlement, nationalisation law, Income Tax adjustment, and so forth. Theoretical Constitution makers would laugh to scorn at the machinery by which the British Empire is governed. They would give us a rigid and cast-iron system, which would break up the Empire within a short time. Our system works. Why? Because the motive power within it is good will. The Empire is based on good will. It would not be worth maintaining if it were not.
The function of the Imperial Conference is to inform and guide political opinion within the Empire. It has done most valuable work in the past, and I do not think its constitution could be changed without danger. It consists of the Prime Ministers who are responsible for shaping both the legislative and administrative policy of their respective Dominions. Of necessity, only the parties in power are represented; it is like a Cabinet Council,
in which other political parties cannot be represented. I think it is essential that we should seek means of extending and developing the influence of these Conferences. I make two suggestions. I submit that the time has come when the distinguished statesmen who form this Imperial Cabinet or Conference should be entitled to appear in the Imperial Parliament, in either House, and to take part in the discussions on Empire policy. This firsthand contact would have a powerful effect both in this House and in the country.
Secondly, the Imperial Conference is always held in London. Could it not be supplemented by a series of less official inter-Parliamentary visits and conferences? Would it not be possible to ask the Dominion Parliaments to send representatives to this country, to hold some informal conferences with Members of this Parliament next year, in connection with the British Empire Exhibition? The Empire Parliamentary Association is doing excellent work along those lines, but the Government might do more. Why should not a delegation from each of the parties of this House be sent to visit some part of the British Empire each year, and in that way gain a first-hand knowledge? I speak from an intimate knowledge of our Dominions, and I feel assured that these suggestions I have given, if acted upon, would promote progress and good will throughout the Empire.

Captain FOXCROFT: In common with a great many other Members of the Committee, I feel rather disappointed that the Under-Secretary has said nothing about Palestine, and I do not therefore apologise for intervening myself to say something about, that country. I should remind the Committee that the population of Palestine is not Jewish. It is and has been for many hundreds of years from 90 to 92 per cent. Mahommedan Arab, and I think neglect of this fact has been responsible for what can only be described as the present deplorable situation in Palestine. May I briefly sketch our relations with the Arabs and especially the Palestinian Arabs since before the Armistice to the present moment. Long before the War there was no European nation more popular or more trusted among the Arabs than the British, and in 1915 the Sherif of Mecca was only too glad to conclude an alliance with us, largely because he said the Arabian people
among whom he dwelt were determined if possible to be friends with the British. This desire for friendship with the British was even more strikingly evinced during our advance in Palestine. We were received at the opening of our campaign with open arms by the Palestinians. They treated us not as conquerors but as deliverers, and the inhabitants came to meet us—men, women, and children with fruit and flowers in their hands. Before we had been many months, possibly not many weeks, in Palestine, the Commander-in-Chief of the Turks actually threatened to pull down Gaza stone by stone, because he said the inhabitants were all "British." When the Armistice came there was but one feeling from Dan to Beersheba, and it was that the British must remain in Palestine and help to guide the Palestinians along the path of good government towards peace, progress and prosperity. When I asked a leading Palestinian why they wanted us to remain, he said: "Because we consider the British people are a good people." I asked him what he meant by a good people and he said, "You are a people who, if you govern another people, do so in order that you may help them and not in order that you may gain advantage for yourselves."
9.0 P.M
That was the situation at the time of the Armistice. What is the situation to-day after four years of British administration? Everywhere distrust and simmering unrest. We have had two deputations elected by the Christians and by the Arabs and, I believe, also representing largely the feeling of the resident Jews. These deputations have been sent to this country to voice the grievances of the Palestinian Arabs and Christians, and both have returned to their own country absolutely unsatisfied. I am told a third deputation has actually arrived within the last few days. In addition to this, the constitution which we offered to the Palestinians during the past few months was looked upon by them with such distrust and dislike that I it had to be withdrawn. What is the reason for this extraordinary volte face of the Palestinians in their attitude towards the British. Why has their affection of four years ago has been turned into something like suspicion? Why is it that these people who are, per-
haps, the most peace-loving and most progressive and certainly the most pro-British of all Arab peoples, who welcomed us with open arms when we invaded their country, are now publicly declaring that they regret the disappearance of the Turk? There is only one reason and that is fear the fear of Zionist domination—the fear that our advent and that our administration are stepping stones to complete political domination by the Zionists. I ask whether there is any real foundation for this fear? I hope there is not. I hoped, before the Debate had concluded, we should have heard from the Under-Secretary something that would have allayed those fears. We have not had that, and I therefore think it is only right that I should marshal, so far as I can, the evidence which is the foundation of those fears. First and foremost we have the Balfour Declaration, which promised a National Home to imported Zionist Jews in a country which is inhabited by a population 93 per cent. Arabs; Arabs who believe that they have been promised self-government twice—once by Treaty, in 1915, and once by Proclamation, in 1918. And side by side with the Balfour Declaration we have the Palestine Zionist Commission, a Commission with its extreme aims and enormous powers. The Arabs hear the spokesmen of that Commission, who practically say that not only are the Zionists soon going to make the desert blossom like the rose, but they are also going to turn Palestine to-morrow into a place as Jewish as England is British to-day.

Mr. LINFIELD: Who says this?

Captain FOXCROFT: The leader of the Zionists, Dr. Weizmann, said that, and not only that, but later on a representative of the Zionists, when he was asked what was going to happen to the 93 per cent. of Arabs left in Palestine, said, "They can go to Bagdad or to Mecca, or out there"—pointing to the desert.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I know Dr. Weizmann, and I have discussed matters with him, and he has no such sentiment, and I should like to know the authority for that statement.

Captain FOXCROFT: It was said by him to a friend of mine in Palestine two
years ago. I believe Dr. Weizmann to be an absolutely honest man, and I do not think he will deny that.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: He does deny it.

Captain FOXCROFT: That is what he said two years ago. Sir Louis Bols, who was our representative in Palestine, actually considered the Zionist Commission so dangerous that he advised its dissolution, but he was not listened to, and he was succeeded by Sir Herbert Samuel, who, as a Jew and a Zionist, has been described by Zionists as "our Samuel." Sir Herbert has two trusted advisers. One is his Attorney-General, who is a Zionist and a Jew, and I think we might almost say out-Herods Herod in his Zionism, and his other adviser is a gentleman who before he was adviser to Sir Herbert Samuel was secretary of the Palestine Zionist Commission.

Mr. LINFIELD: Is it an offence to be a Jew?

Captain FOXCROFT: Next we see that all this results in the Hebrew language, which is the language of only something like 5 per cent. of the inhabitants of Palestine, being elevated to an equality practically with the Arabic language, which is the language of 93 per cent. of the native inhabitants; while behind and beyond all this the Palestinians see enormous economic advantages granted, to whom? To an Englishman? To an Arab? No; to a Russian revolutionary Jew. We have been told by Mr. Winston Churchill that the reason why Mr. Rutenberg should be accepted by the British in the job which he asked for was because no more eligible applicant offered himself. It strikes me that if no more eligible applicant than Mr. Rutenberg offered himself for the job, the British Government might very well have left that job vacant for some time longer. Next to the rather sinister figure of Mr. Rutenberg, we see the far more amiable personality of the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, but here the Palestinians see that the Under-Secretary, when he was in military service, was actually attached to this very Palestinian Zionist Commission, and although we know very well that, being an English gentleman, he would never allow the Zionist prepossessions which he might have gained there to in-
terfere with his duties towards the 93 percent. Arab population—

Mr. LINFI ELD: Why mention it then?

Captain FOXCROFT: —we cannot expect the Palestinians to recognise this fact. Then we find, parallel to all these things, a continuous, steady stream of immigrant Jews, many of them, until recently, of the most undesirable character. I am told that recently, whilst the quantity has increased, the quality has somewhat improved, and I only hope that is the case, because certainly there was great need of improvement. A gentleman who represents a very friendly Power said to me a short time ago:
I am very sorry for the Palestinians that they have this immigration policy forced upon them, but it is an ill-wind that blows nobody any good, and my country realise that, thanks to your policy, their ghettoes are being rid of their most undesirable inhabitants.

Mr. NEWBOLD: Was that Rumania?

Captain FOXCROFT: No, it was not. Last, but not least, the Arabs, see the Constitution which has been offered to them, which, on the surface, appears to be more or less representative, but which, in actual effect, will leave the Arabs in a permanent minority. Consequently, they believe that that Constitution is practically a camouflage for maintaining Sir Herbert Samuel in perpetual control, until he shall have so increased the imported Jews by his immigration policy that they may in the end outnumber the Arab inhabitants. I do not pretend to say that possibly some of these fears may not be exaggerated. Anyhow, I think we have sufficient evidence to go upon for the friends of the Arabs to ask the Government if they will actually give a declaration of what their policy is. Some months ago, questions were asked in another place with regard to that policy, and an answer was given by the Secretary of State for the Colonies. That answer practically said that His Majesty's Government intended eventually to give self-government to Palestine, and I think we all agree that, so far as it goes, that declaration is satisfactory, but that declaration, in the opinion of the Palestinians and of those who believe in them, does not go far enough. They say, "It is all very well to tell us you are going eventually to give self-government to Palestine, but, for all we
know, that self-government may be held up until you have imported sufficient alien Jews to outnumber the resident inhabitants, and what we want is some guarantee that you are not going to do that."
I believe it is possible for His Majesty's Government to give some such guarantee. The Arabs are a reasonable people, they lived for many years under the Turks on quite good terms with the resident Jews, and I believe they are quite ready to receive a certain limited number of selected Jews, if those Jews wish to return to the land of their fathers, which most of their countrymen have deserted for the last 2,000 years. I believe that that guarantee could very well be given by His Majesty's Government in the following way: They could, first of all, give control to the Arabs over immigration, and, in the second place, they could give the Arabs a High Commissioner, who would be an ordinary Englishman with no axe to grind, with no Zionist fads, an ordinary Englishman, whose one desire would be to do the best possible for the largest number of the inhabitants of that country.

Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: Does the hon. and gallant Member suggest that Sir Herbert Samuel's administration is not absolutely impartial?

Captain FOXCROFT: If the Noble Lord will wait one moment, I will answer that question. I have a great admiration for Sir Herbert Samuel. I believe that he is an able man and an honest man, but Sir Herbert Samuel is attempting the impossible. He, a Zionist Jew, with Zionist aspirations, is attempting to reconcile those aspirations with doing absolute justice to 93 per cent. of the population who are Arabs which is impossible, and I suggest that Sir Herbert Samuel and his Attorney-General, both of whom are able and, I believe, honest men, might very well be rewarded by His Majesty's, Government by being given, somewhat quickly, promotion to another sphere. You might then have in their place what hon. Members opposite seem to think a most disreputable kind of thing, an ordinary English gentleman, who will have no axe to grind.

Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: What does an axe to grind mean?

Captain FOXCROFT: Exactly what it says—absolutely no intention of doing anything except what, in the opinion of those men, is his duty towards the in habitants of the country over which ha rules.

Captain BERKELEY: Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman believe that Sir Herbert Samuel has an axe to grind?

Captain FOXCROFT: Certainly, in the shape of his being a Zionist, with Zionist aspirations, and it is impossible to reconcile Zionist aspirations with his duty towards the 93 per cent. Arab population. If His Majesty's Government will grant some such guarantee to these poor, almost friendless Arabs, I believe their unrest will disappear as if by the stroke of a magic wand, and they will once more become the best friends of the British; but I would warn the Government of this, that if they continue what I can only term their somewhat dubious policy, handed down by the Coalition to them, there will be only one end to it. Arab unrest and Arab distrust will increase side by side with a decrease of British prestige, and the evil will not end there, because that evil will, I am perfectly certain, have a serious and most pernicious repercussion throughout the entire East.

Mr. SNELL: I confess I have a good deal of hesitation in intervening in this Debate lest I should do some injury to the cause for which I speak, because I understand from some speakers on the other side of the House that if anybody from another country consulted us on these benches, or asked our advice, it would prove that they were enemies of this country. When they speak of the settlers of Kenya that, presumably, is all right; it is the natural thing to do. But if we should speak for groups of Indians, who require reforms in their constitution, or for any other group in the outlying parts of our Empire, that would seem to label them as being enemies of this country. That, I venture to say, is a very deplorable suggestion, of which hon. Members on the other side ought to be entirely ashamed. There is, however, just this point, that although the Members of the Labour party may have different ideas of Government, and even as to the ultimate end of our Empire from hon. Gentlemen on the other side, it is conceivable, in the
long run, that our theory may hold the Empire together, and the other theory may disband it. It is worth while in that connection to point out that the theory advanced by the hon. and learned Member for Swindon (Mr. Banks) has already lost us from our Empire Ireland and Egypt, and if such racial impertinence as he indulged in to-night is repeated very often in this House, it might result in our losing India.
That 1s all I desire, or trust myself to say upon the matter, but I do ask the attention of the House for one or two minutes to another matter that was mentioned by the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, namely, the relation of this country to the Colony of Ceylon. It is not so exciting a subject as Kenya, but it does affect 4½ millions of our fellow-citizens in the Empire, and it is worth while, therefore, that the House should give it some slight attention. The people of Ceylon are engaged in bringing their constitution more closely in accord with the growing capacitiee and progressive culture of their people, and as the constitution is being revised, it is not surprising that the views of certain sections in the community do not entirely agree with the views put forward by His Majesty's Government. One would assume that the purpose of revising the constitution of any part of the Empire would be to make it as good as it possibly could be made, and that any criticisms of plans suggested, so long as they were courteous and helpful, would be welcomed by His Majesty's Government. I shall assume in what I have to say that the principle which should guide us in revising a constitution is that the constitution should be so constructed that it would function efficiently, that it would safeguard the liberties of the people of Ceylon, for instance, and at the same time promote the well-being and protect the interests of the Imperial Government. It should, further, evoke the assent of the great majority of the people who will have to live under the Constitution.
Now the aim of the Imperial Government, in revising the constitution of Ceylon, should, I suggest, be to build a constitution which is expressive of the national idealism of the great majority of the people of the country, to develop a spirit which is bigger than the spirit of any section within that community, and
aim at transforming those who are divided into races, tribes and religious sects and interests, into a people; in other words, to create a national spirit so healthy and so strong that it would dominate over the sectional interests and ambitions as they exhibit themselves in different races. What does this constitution which His Majesty's Government are proposing for Ceylon actually do? Is it likely to promote the end that I have described? As a matter of fact, it would seem by its proposals to disregard the fact that the discontent which exists there is a natural thing. After all, racial ideals and racial ambitions are very slow to die, and they accommodate themselves very slowly to national ideals. But this constitution does not gain the assent of the majority of those who will have to live under it, and in that respect is bad. It does not create a people. On the contrary, it would seem to intensify every difference, to separate still further one race from another, and to perpetuate difficulties which it should aim at solving.
In spite of what has been said on the other side, this all centres in what I regard as the very unwise and dangerous expedient of communal representation. It is seeking to run a community on racial lines for an indefinite period, and there seems to be no justification for this narrow and limited conception of tribal interest. When the electoral principle was established in 1912, the various populations were then formed into an electorate for the purpose of political and administrative representation. That experiment has resulted in no such disadvantage as would justify it being broken up, and the communal system of representation being reestablished. There has been ample evidence of the willingness and the capacity of the people of Ceylon to transcend the racial limitations, and they have shown that by appointing men of different races and different creeds in popular elections to undertake their government. The people of Ceylon very naturally fear at the present time that if this communal representation is imposed upon their colony, with all the racial and tribal jealousies, which it should be the aim and business of the Imperial Government to try to abandon, and if this constitution passes, then we may never expect to have the national spirit developed, but the racial
needs, and so on, will be intensified. Each group will watch and fight for its own interest, and all kinds of artificial antipathies will be stimulated. What advantage is to be gained by this principle being proposed in this way? It settles no problem, but it does create new problems. It seems as though the intention of His Majesty's Government was to play off one section of the community against the other on the principle of "divide and govern." One knows that that is not the intention of His Majesty's Government, but people looking at it from the island to which it refers may think it is so.
I would remind the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies that, when he spoke of Ceylon, he said nothing about the position of the Executive Council in the new Constitution that is proposed. There is one deduction to be drawn from the Constitution proposed, to which I desire to draw the attention of the Committee. It appears to me, in certain of its features, to bear a very ominous resemblance to certain features of the Soviet Constitution of Russia, with its nominated members, with its specialised representation and all the other antidemocratic expedients associated with that system. I am a polite person, and all I would venture to say is that my enthusiasm for the Soviet system is under very strict control. It surprises me, but I am sure it must interest the hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. Newbold) to see certain features of that system imposed upon a Colony against its will by the Imperial Government of the Empire. I, for my part, am content to leave Russia to a monopoly of its own methods and try to conduct our business in the Empire on lines which have been tried and proved by many years of experience. May I try to draw a parallel of what would happen if the same system ruled in our own country. We should be a people not striving for a common purpose but divided into separate groups, each group looking after its own interests. Supposing we had Members elected to this House as Jews and Scots and Irish and Welsh, whether they lived in Scotland or Ireland or Wales or anywhere, just on the point of nationality; or supposing we were the elected as Roman Catholics, or Protestants, or Dissenters, or Sceptics, or whatever we happened to be, the
nation would lose a good deal. We should be further away from that unity of purpose and outlook we are striving to obtain, and whatever difficulties we have would be intensified If it is our aim in this country to develop that larger fellowship of the nation as a whole, then we have to transcend the boundaries of sects and creeds and races and think of something bigger than that.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, in his speech, said that nothing could be of greater peril than the clash of races, and he told us that the great fellowship of the Empire could not be subordinated to norrow ideals of racial consciousness. These were admirable statements of high principle, and I ask him, in relation to this Constitution of Ceylon, to apply, where he has the power, the advice and the principles he so ably enunciated to this House. I understand the matter is not finally settled, and that in a few weeks the Government will issue a report. Presumably, therefore, the matter is still open, and the final decision is not made. I therefore appeal to the Government to make an earnest attempt to accommodate its views, so far as that is possible, to the views of the representatives of the Ceylon Congress. It may be a bad thing that a majority of a nation should rule, but it is a worse thing that a minority should rule over a majority. This Constitution makes the minority rule the majority. I can understand why His Majesty's Government has introduced that, because it itself rules on a minority vote in this country. [Laughter.] But this matter is too important to be a matter of banter in that sense. I only suggest that an opportunity is now presented for revising a decision come to and for trying to bring into accord both the views of the people of Ceylon, as expressed by the Ceylon Congress, and His Majesty's Government. If that is done, it will make for peace and security abroad; it will supply one example at least of that desire for fair government which hon. Members on the opposite side have said is the prominent feature of our Empire policy.

Mr. RANKIN: Recent official statements on the future of Mesopotamia have had a stabilising effect and given a respite to argument on either side, but I venture to think the time has not yet come when an
irrevocable decision can be reached, and that it may well be that the uncertain events of a still uncertain world will fashion our policy anew. I think it is necessary in order to avoid confusion, to try and keep separate in our minds the problem itself as distinct from the methods we employed to deal with it. For it is because these methods have often been mistaken, because administration has been costly, because we have incurred taxation and because the Arabs have displayed discontent that many people in this country have been led to confuse a temporary and passing failure in administration with the abiding problem of a country and a people whose resources are almost without limit, who hold more than one gateway to trade and strategy, and who for centuries have never had a chance. I am sure the question of honour and obligation can safely be left in the hands of the hon. Gentleman who represents the Colonial Office, but I would be interested to know whether he accepts the statement that our obligation is not merely to set up but to maintain the Arab state. However that may be, I am well aware that this question of honour or obligation is capable of widely different and equally sincere interpretations, and I do not for one moment contend that the interpretation of a very junior officer is of any importance to anyone except himself. Yet there are many of us who, in the ordinary routine of duty, and, very probably, upon occasions not unknown to the Under-Secretary for the Colonies himself, were brought into close association with the Arabs whose help, whose supplies, whose news were desired and received. In all probability the word "honour" was never used. If it had been, doubtless it would have lacked authority, but to me, at any rate, despite the very minor rank I held, the cumulative effect of such association of bargains scrupulously kept, of help received, perhaps even of Safety assured, the cumulative unspoken effect of such association meant honour and the fulfilment of an obligation in years to come. Personal association is apt to bias argument, and it is not easy to visualise in terms of cash and taxation the vivid impressions of years of war. I therefore confess that I am not uninfluenced by the recollection of a land
in many parts so barren that was once so prosperous, that in the words of the old saying, a sparrow might hop from tree to tree from Babylon to the Persian Gulf, or by the recollection of those same barren lands one day barely scratched by the crude, improvised harrow of a battery of field artillery, almost the next sprouting into native corn; or of the tribes patriarchal, almost Biblical, wholly in a stationary stage of civilisation, and beside them the men of the larger cities, men of eminence and ability, possessing a confidence in themselves based, not on superficial assumption of Western culture but on the pride and tradition of their race. And till we came, neither people nor country for centuries ever had a chance. Two things might have brought that chance to fruition had the fates been kinder and mankind more wise. First, had General Maude lived. Second, had private enterprise been encouraged instead of obstructed at a time when it was ready and anxious to come in. With better fortune and greater wisdom the whole history of the past four years might have been very different. Meanwhile the Government have come to their decision. It may be wise though I profoundly differ from it. At any rate, it might have been far worse, I frankly admit that. But most of all am I inclined to believe that even yet it must be modified, perhaps by events still unrevealed. I only hope it may not be too late.

Mr. LINFIELD: I desire to say something on Ceylon. It is rather unfortunate when on a matter of this kind party interest obtrude, but I may say that, so far as the Under-Secretary is concerned, he has always been ready to listen to views put forward and to give them consideration. I wish for a few moments to put the question from the broad point of view. What we do to-day may affect for good or evil the Colony of Ceylon in the years that are to come. I sincerely hope the Minister will not be influenced too much by the men on the spot. There is a danger always that the man on the spot, the European section, will endeavour to bring an undue weight to bear on the Minister in charge. I hope the hon. and gallant Gentleman will have an open mind on this question and consider it in all its bearings, and then come to a decision that he himself would feel to be right and just, and in the best interests
of the inhabitants of the islands and the Empire.
Our aim should be to equip and assist people to govern themselves. There will be general agreement with that idea. I think also we should be agreed that it is a mistake to encourage racial differences. Ceylon is far ahead of India. It has 50 per cent. of illiterates, and in the matter of social progress the women are freer in Ceylon. I was delighted to hear the Member for Luton (Sir J. Hewett) suggest that he was favourable to the franchise being extended to educated women in India. So far as Ceylon is concerned, there is no segregation as in India. There is no racial exclusiveness. It is true that caste prevails, but it is limited more or less to marriage. People of all castes and of the same social standing meet freely in social intercourse. There is no hostility to Europeans, for I frankly admit that it would not be wise to give self-government to Ceylon or anywhere else where the people were hostile to the Empire. So far as the people of Ceylon are concerned, there has always been a perfectly friendly feeling between the people and Europeans and other foreigners.
One other point. The people of Ceylon are absolutely loyal. When the Prince of Wales visited the island he had a magnificent reception which contrasted somewhat with the reception that befell him in India. Other reasons might be advanced in favour of the legitimate aspirations of the people being encouraged. We ought to go as far as we possibly can towards self-government for them. A scheme has been promulgated, and I should like to hear that the last word has not been said on the point, for that scheme appears to bear somewhat hardly on the majority in the island. I have the particulars here. There is a population of 3,016,000 Cingalese. It is proposed to give to these 14 seats. There is a population of Europeans, Burghers, Mahommedans and others of 1,456,000. This population is to have 18 seats. If in a matter of this sort you in any way act so as to put the majority in a minority you are bound to have trouble. I want to invite the Under-Secretary to give this matter his most serious attention, for so far as I can gather the people have every desire to come to an amicable settlement. May I make a suggestion. The Southern Pro-
vinces has 600,000 people, and it has only two members. The Central or North-Western Province has 400,000 of a population, and that is only to have two members. The Northern Province, with 300,000 of a population, has three members, and I wish to suggest to the Under-Secretary that he should grant two further seats, and consider that suggestion also in relation to the Southern Province and the Central or North-Western Province. I suggest this, because I think it will go a long way towards settling this very difficult question. In these matters I think the Government should try and meet the wishes of the people as. far as they can, and I trust the Under-Secretary will sympathetically consider this suggestion. Injustice will always breed discontent, unrest, and agitation, and may I say in all honesty that is what I desire to avoid. I listened with much interest to the speech of the Prime Minister on the 23rd July, and this is what he said, and with great respect I submit it for the consideration of the Under-Secretary. Speaking of the British Empire, the right hon. Gentleman said:
It is a large assembly of free nations not all of the same kin, or the same colour, but animated largely by a common purpose, and all equally anxious to see extended in every corner of that Empire or Commonwealth those ideas of liberty and justice and freedom which we believe are in our hearts, and which we wish to see spread throughout our Empire and throughout the world..
Those are the Prime Minister's words, and I am asking the Government to put them into practice. Here they have an excellent opportunity. The spirit of liberty is really abroad in the land. We have fought for it. When I look at the benches above the Gangway I see many evidences of it here. I remember visiting this House over 25 or 30 years ago, and in those distant days it would have been an unheard of thing for one to suggest that 140 or 150 men who had toiled with their hands could be found in this House.

The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is getting a long way from the question before the Committee.

Mr. LINFIELD: I suggest that this Empire has been built up by that spirit of freedom and liberty, but if the spirit which has been preached to-night by the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. Banks)
had prevailed we should not have had any Empire at all. That spirit lost us America, but the spirit of freedom and liberty and self-government has secured for us South Africa and Canada, and the biggest Empire the world has ever seen. I ask the Under-Secretary to do this little bit of Empire building, for it is only a small thing we are asking. We are asking him to satisfy the righteous claims of these people, and I am sure if he will do that he will earn, not only our gratitude, but the gratitude of the people for whom we are speaking.

TheCHANCELLOR of the DUCHY of LANCASTER (Mr. J. C. C. Davidson): I think hon. Members will expect some reply to the discussion. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up‡"] I think everyone will agree that we have listened to a most interesting and instructive Debate, and if I am unable 'to deal with all the specific points which have been raised, I can assure hon. Members who have made suggestions that they will receive very careful consideration at the hands of the Department. In the few moments that still remain, perhaps I may be permitted to offer a few general observations, and bring back the Committee to a realisation in general terms of the present position and the trend of Imperial policy. Perhaps the Committee will forgive me if I appear almost platitudinous, but the position as I see it is that, since the War, European markets have been destroyed, and of necessity, if we are to have a trade recovery, we must look, for the moment at any rate, elsewhere. It therefore follows that the problem which faces the Economic Conference, and which faces the Colonial Office in relation to the Crown Colonies, is to find some means of developing markets within the British Empire which will replace those markets which we have lost, although perhaps only temporarily.
One important sphere of operations in this respect is Africa. We have heard a lot to-day on all sides about the balancing of the Budgets of our Colonies, and of their essential requirements before they can take an active part in a forward policy. Surely the time is coming when private enterprise must take a part, and a greater part in such development. Personally I have no fears, although I am afraid hon. Members opposite shall have the fear that the white settler or the
white trader will pursue a policy not very remote from the Press Gang of 100 years ago. I have no fear of that under the wise guidance and administration of our great Colonial service in which I have taken a humble part, and in which I have many friends. Under that guidance and under the progressive initiative of individuals and groups of individuals who are anxious to see the native provinces prosper, we shall see a development which will benefit the natives as well as ourselves. I have no fear but that the policy which we are pursuing will prove successful. Remember also that by the service of our Debt to America we have to find many millions a year, and at the same time we have to purchase raw material from America amounting to many millions a year. Every single pound that we can take off the American exchange so much the better for us, especially if it is spent within the British Empire. The development of cotton, sugar and tobacco—all these are matters of the most vital importance, not only in providing our own people here with employment, but they are equally important because if it is essential to purchase these commodities they should be purchased if possible from our own people.
As has been announced a Committee has been formed at the Colonial Office to inquire into the possibilities of interesting private enterprise in transportation systems in Africa. It would not be proper for me, as a member of that Committee, to give any indications of their intention, but I do not think that the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under

Lyme(Colonel Wedgwood) need fear that anything will be contemplated by the Colonial Office in the nature of block land purchase and other matters to which he alluded in his speech. It is a subject for congratulation that the hon. and gallant Member has been converted, in the matter of the Tanganyika land laws to one of the oldest principles of Toryism, namely, peasant proprietorship, which is one of the underlying principles of those land laws which have been in force in Nigeria for a long time. It is the transition stage between tribal ownership and individual ownership, and I was somewhat surprised at the very fervent blessing which the hon. and gallant Member gave it.

The Under-Secretary for the Colonies has presented to the Committee a very fine review of the labours of the Department. There is one aspect of it which is very satisfactory. It is that it announces three settlements of outstanding differences. We have, in the first place, the Rhodesian settlement, and in the second place, the Kenya settlement, and I think I am voicing the opinion of all sections of the House when I say the less bitterness which is imported into that question the better, because more harm than good will be done. Finally, we have got the Lausanne settlement, and if we continue to pursue the enlightened policy that the present Government is pursuing, we may be sure of maintaining a prosperous Empire.

Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £101,229, be granted for the said Service."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 186; Noes, 297.

Division No. 310.]
AYES
10.0 p. m.


Adams, D.
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedweilty)


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Cape, Thomas
Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Chapple, W. A.
England, Lieut.-Colonel A.


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Charleton, H. C
Entwistle, Major C. F.


Ammon, Charles George
Clarke, Sir E. C.
Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)


Attlee, C. R.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Fairbairn, R. R.


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Falconer, J.


Barnes, A.
Collison, Levi
Foot, Isaac


Batey, Joseph
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)


Berkeley, Captain Reginald
Darbishire, C. W.
Gilbert, James Daniel


Bonwick, A.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Gosling, Harry


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)
Graham D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)


Briant, Frank
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)


Broad, F. A.
Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Gray, Frank (Oxford)


Bromfield, William
Duffy, T. Gavan
Greenall, T.


Brotherton, J.
Duncan, C.
Grenfeil, D. R. (Glamorgan)


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Dunnico, H.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)


Buckle, J.
Ede, James Chuter
Groves, T.


Burgess, S.
Edge, Captain Sir William
Grundy, T. W.


Buxton, Charles (Accrington)
Edmonds, G.
Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)


Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Linfield, F. C.
Simpson, J. Hope


Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Lowth, T.
Sinclair, Sir A.


Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Lunn, William
Smillie, Robert


Hancock, John George
MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)
Smith, T. (Pontefract)


Harbor, Arthur
McLaren, Andrew
Sneil, Harry


Hardie, George D.
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Snowden, Philip


Harney, E. A.
March, S.
Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)


Hartshorn, Vernon
Marks, Sir George Croydon
Spoor, B. G.


Hastings, Patrick
Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)
Middleton, G.
Strauss, Edward Anthony


Hayday, Arthur
Millar, J. D.
Sturrock, J. Leng


Hemmerde, E. G.
Morel, E. D.
Sullivan, J.


Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)
Morris, Harold
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby')


Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)


Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Mosley, Oswald
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Herriotts, J.
Muir, John W.
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Hill, A.
Murnin, H.
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Hinds, John
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Tout, W. J.


Hirst, G. H.
Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)
Trevelyan, C. P.


Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Newbold, J. T. W.
Turner, Ben


Hodge, Lieut.-Colonel J. P. (Preston)
O'Grady, Captain James
Wellhead, Richard C.


Hogge, James Myles
Oliver, George Harold
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)
Paling, W.
Warne, G. H.


Irving, Dan
Parker, H. (Henley)
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


John, William (Rhondda, West)
Pattinson, R. (Grantham)
Webb, Sidney


Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)
Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)
Ponsonby, Arthur
Weir, L. M.


Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Potts, John S.
Westwood, J.


Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Pringle, W. M. R.
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)


Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)
Ritson, J.
Whiteley, W.


Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)


Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)
Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)
Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.
Royce, William Stapleton
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Kenyon, Barnet
Sakiatvala, S.
Wintringham, Margaret


Kirkwood, D.
Salter, Dr. A.
Wright. W.


Lansbury, George
Scrymgeour, E.
Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)


Lawson, John James
Sexton. James
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Leach, W.
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)



Lee, F.
Shinwell, Emanuel)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Phillips and Sir A. Marshall.


Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)



NOES.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)
Curzon, Captain Viscount


Ainsworth, Captain Charles
Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)
Bruford, R.
Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel) Hempstead)


Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)
Bruton, Sir James
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Buckingham, Sir H.
Davies, Thomas (Clrencester)


Apsley, Lord
Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Dawson, Sir Philip


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.
Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew
Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)


Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)
Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)
Doyle, N. Grattan


Astor, Viscountess
Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)
Du Pre, Colonel William Baring


Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence
Butt, Sir Alfred
Edmondson, Major A. J.


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Button, H. S.
Ednam, Viscount


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Cadogan, Major Edward
Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)


Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Ellis, R. G.


Banks, Mitchell
Cassels, J. D.
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith


Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague
Cautley, Henry Strother
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Erskine-Boist, Captain C.


Barnston, Major Harry
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)


Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)
Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.


Becker, Harry
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)
Falcon, Captain Michael


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray


Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.
Chamberlain. Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Fawkes, Major F. H.


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Chapman, Sir S.
Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.


Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)
Chilcott, Sir Warden
Flanagan, W. H.


Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-
Churchman, Sir Arthur
Foreman, Sir Henry


Berry, Sir George
Clarry, Reginald George
Forestier-Walker, L.


Betterton, Henry B.
Clayton, G. C.
Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Fraser, Major Sir Keith


Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Frece, Sir Waiter de


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Cohen, Major J. Brunel
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.


Blundell, F. N.
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Furness, G. J.


Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.
Cope, Major William
Galbraith, J. F. W.


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Ganzonl, Sir John


Brass, Captain W.
Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)
Gardiner, James


Brassey, Sir Leonard
Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)
Garland, C. S.


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.


Brittain, Sir Harry
Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John


Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Goff, Sir R. Park




Gould, James C.
Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Rogerson, Capt. J. E.


Gray, Harold (Cambridge)
Lumley, L. R.
Rothschild, Lionel de


Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Roundell, Colonel R. F.


Gretton, Colonel John
McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Ruggles-Brise, Major E.


Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.
Maddocks, Sir Henry
Russell, Alexander West-(Tynemouth)


Gwynne, Rupert S.
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Russell, William (Bolton)


Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney


Hall, Lieut-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Manville, Edward
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'I,W.D'by)
Margesson, H. D. R.
Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.


Halstead, Major D.
Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Sanderson, Sir Frank B.


Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)
Mercer, Colonel H.
Sandon, Lord


Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley


Harrison, F. C.
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Shepperson, E. W.


Harvey, Major S. E.
Molloy, Major L. G. S.
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Hawke, John Anthony
Moreing, Captain Algernon H.
Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.


Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)
Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)
Singleton, J. E.


Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)
Skelton, A. N.


Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Murchison, C. K.
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)
Nall, Major Joseph
Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)


Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Herbert, S. (Scarborough)
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)


Hewett, Sir J. P.
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.


Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Stanley, Lord


Hiley, Sir Ernest
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Stewart, Gersham (Wirral)


Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S J. G.
Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth


Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Nield, Sir Herbert
Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.


Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy
Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John
Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-


Hood, Sir Joseph
O'Neill, t. Hon. Hugh
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Hopkins, John W. W.
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.


Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mosslay)
Paget, T. G.
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Parker. Owen (Kettering)
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Houfton, John Plowright
Pennefather, De Fonblanque
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)
Penny, Frederick George
Thorpe, Captain John Henry


Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Hudson, Capt. A.
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Tubbs, S. W.


Hume, G. H.
Perring, William George
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Peto, Basil E.
Wallace, Captain E.


Hurd, Percy A.
Philipson, Mabel
Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)


Hurst, Gerald B.
Pielou, D. P.
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)


Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)
Pilditch, Sir Philip
Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.


Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray
Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)


Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Warrington)


Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Privett F. J.
Wells, S. R.


James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Rae, Sir Henry N.
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul
Raeburn, Sir William H.
Wheeler, Col. Granville C. H.


Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)
Raine, W.
White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)


Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Rankin, Captain James Stuart
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.
Rawlinson, t. Hon. John Fredk. Peel
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel-George


Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel
Rawson, Lieut.-Commander A. C.
Winterton, Earl


King, Captain Henry Douglas
Rees, Sir Beddoe
Wise, Frederick


Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Wolmer, Viscount


Lamb, J. Q.
Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)


Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.
Remer, J. R.
Wood. Maj. Sir S. Hill (High Peak)


Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Remnant, Sir James
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Reynolds, W. G. W.
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.
Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward


Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)
Yerburgh, R. D. T.


Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)



Lordun, John William
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs.


Lorimer, H. D.
Robertson-Despencer, Major (Islgtn, W)



Lougher, L.
Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)



Lowe, Sir Francis William




Original Question put, and agreed to.

It being after Ten of the clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order No. 15, to put severally the Questions, "That the total amounts of the Votes outstanding in the several Classes of the Civil Services Estimates and of the other outstanding Votes, including Supplementary Estimates, and the total amounts of the Votes outstanding in the Estimates for the Navy, Army, Air
and Revenue Departments, be granted for the Services defined in those Classes and Estimates.

CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1923–24.

CLASS I.

"That a sum, not exceeding £3,587,660, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for Expenditure in respect of the Services
included in Class I of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:




£


1.
Royal Palaces
64,965


2.
Osborne
10,925


3.
Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens
122,600


4.
Houses of Parliament Buildings
54,875


5.
Miscellaneous Legal Buildings, Great Britain
49,450


6.
Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain
189,550


7
Diplomatic and Consular Buildings
168,050


9.
Labour and Health Buildings, Great Britain
385,575


10.
Public Buildings, Great Britain
1,281,100

£


10A.
House Building
5


10B.
Housing Schemes
,23,650


10c.
Memorials
11,340


10D.
Mall Approach Improvement
500


11.
Surveys of Great Britain
97,110


12.
Peterhead Harbour
17,000


13.
Rates on Government Property
1,003,785


14.
Works and Buildings in Ireland
107,180




£3,587,660"

Question put,

The Committe divided: Ayes, 300; Noes, 198.

Division No. 311.]
AYES.
[10.10 p.m.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John


Ainsworth, Captain Charles
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)
Goff, Sir R. Park


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitching)
Gould, James C.


Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Gray, Harold (Cambridge)


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood)
Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)


Apsley, Lord
Chapman, Sir S.
Gretton, Colonel John


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin
Chilcott, Sir Warden
Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.
Churchman, Sir Arthur
Gwynne, Rupert S.


Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)
Clarry, Reginald George
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.


Astor, Viscountess
Clayton, G. C.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)


Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Hall, Rr-Admi Sir W. (Liv'p'1,W.D'by)


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Halstead, Major D.


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Cohen, Major J. Brunel
Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)


Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Colfax, Major Wm. Phillips
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry


Banks, Mitchell
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)


Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague
Cope, Major William
Harrison, F. C.


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)
Harvey, Major S. E.


Barnston, Major Harry
Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)
Hawke, John Anthony


Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)


Becker, Harry
Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page
Henn, Sir Sydney H.


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C H. (Devizes)
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.


Bellairs, Commander Canyon W.
Curzon, Captain Viscount
Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)


Bonn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)


Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-
Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Herbert, S. (Scarborough)


Berry, Sir George
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Hewett, Sir J. P.


Betterton, Henry B.
Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)
Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Halley, Sir Ernest


Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)
Dawson, Sir Philip
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Maryiebone)


Blundell, F. N.
Doyle, N. Grattan
Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy


Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.
Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Hood, Sir Joseph


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Hopkins, John W. W.


Brass, Captain W.
Ednam, Viscount
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)


Brassey, Sir Leonard
Elliot, Capt. Waiter E. (Lanark)
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Ellis, R. G.
Houfton, John Plowright


Britain, Sir Harry
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)


Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)
Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.


Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)
Erskine, Bolst, Captain C.
Hudson, Capt. A.


Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)
Hume, G. H.


Bruford, R.
Eyres-Monsell, Com. t. Hon. Sir B. M.
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer


Bruton, Sir James
Falcon, Captain Michael
Hurd, Percy A


Buckingham, Sir H.
Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray
Hurst, Gerald B.


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Fawkes, Major F. H.
Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.
Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)


Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew
Flanagan, W. H.
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.


Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)
Foreman, Sir Henry
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.


Butcher, Sir John George
Forestier-Walker, L.
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert


Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)
Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot
Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul


Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)
Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Johnson, Sir L. (Waithamstow, E.)


Butt, Sir Alfred
Frece, Sir Walter de
Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)


Button, H. S.
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.


Cadogan, Major Edward
Furness, G. J.
Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel


Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Galbraith, J. F. W.
King, Captain Henry Douglas


Cassels, J. D.
Ganzoni, Sir John
Kinjoch-Cooke, Sir Clement


Cautley, Henry Strother
Garland, C. S.
Lamb, J. Q.


Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.
Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.


Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)


Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Perring, William George
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Peto, Basil E.
Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-In-Furness)


Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Philipson, Mabel
Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.


Lorden, John William
Pielou, D. P.
Stanley, Lord


Lorimer, H. D.
Pilditch, Sir Philip
Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)


Lougher, L.
Pollock, t. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray
Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth


Lowe, Sir Francis William
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.


Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Privett, F. J.
Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-


Lumley, L. R.
Raeburn, Sir William H.
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Rains, W.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.


McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Rankin, Captain James Stuart
Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William


Maddocks, Sir Henry
Rawlinnon, Rt. Hon. John Frodk. Peel
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Makings, Brigadier-General E.
Rees, Sir Beddoe
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Thorpe, Captain John Henry


Manville, Edward
Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Margesson, H. D. R.
Remer, J. R.
Tubbs, S. W.


Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Remnant, Sir James
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Mercer, Colonel H.
Reynolds, W. G. W.
Wallace, Captain E.


Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.
Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)


Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)


Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Waring, Major Walter


Molloy, Major L. G. S.
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford. Hereford)
Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.


Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Robertson-Despencer, Major(Islgtn,W)
Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)


Morden, Col. W. Grant
Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford)
Wells, S. R.


Moreing, Captain Algernon H.
Rogerson, Capt. J. E.
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)
Rothschild, Lionel de
Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.


Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Monition)
Roundell, Colonel R. F.
White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)


Murchison, C. K.
Ruggles-Brise, Major E.
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Nall, Major Joseph
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)
Russell, William (Bolton)
Winterton, Earl


Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney
Wise, Frederick


Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Wolmer, Viscount


Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)


Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J.(Westminster)
Sanderson, Sir Frank B.
Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Sandon, Lord
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Nield, Sir Herbert
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'1, Exchange)
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward


O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh
Shepperson, E. W.
Yerburgh, R. D. T.


Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)



Paget, T. G.
Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs.


Parker, Owen (Kettering)
Singleton, J. E.



Pennefather, De Fonblanque
Skelton, A. N.



Penny, Frederick George




NOES.


Adams, D.
Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Harris, Percy A.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Duffy, T. Gavan
Hartshorn, Vernon


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Duncan, C.
Hastings, Patrick


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hilisbre')
Dunnico, H.
Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)


Ammon, Charles George
Ede, James Chuter
Hayday, Arthur


Attlee, C. R.
Edge, Captain Sir William
Hammered, E. G.


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Edmonds, G.
Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)


Barnes, A.
Edwards, C (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)


Batey, Joseph
Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)
Herriotts, J.


Berkeley, Captain Reginald
England, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Hill, A.


Bonwick, A.
Entwistle, Major C. F.
Hinds, John


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)
Hirst, G. H.


Briant, Frank
Fairbairn, R. R.
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John


Broad, F. A.
Falconer, J.
Hodge, Lieut.-Colonel J. P. (Preston)


Bromfield, William
Foot, Isaac
Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)


Brotherton, J.
Gardiner, James
Irving, Dan


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)


Buckle, J.
Gilbert, James Daniel
John, William (Rhondda, West)


Burgess, S.
Gosling, Harry
Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)


Burnie, Major J. (Bootie)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)


Buxton, Charles (Accrington)
Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)


Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)
Gray, Frank (Oxford)
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)


Cape, Thomas
Greenall, T.
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)


Chapple, W. A.
Grenfeil, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)


Charieton, H. C.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)


Clarke, Sir E. C.
Groves, T.
Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)


Clynes, t. Hon. John R.
Grundy, T. W.
Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartiepools)


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)
Kenyon, Barnet


Collision, Levi
Guthrie, Thomas Maule
Kirkwood, D.


Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Lanubury, George


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Lawson, John James


Darbishire, C. W.
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Leach, W.


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Hancock, John George
Lee, F.


Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)
Harbord, Arthur
Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Hardie, George D.
Linfield, F. C.


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Harney, E. A.
Lowth, T.




Lunn, William
Price, E. G.
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.
Pringle, W. M. R.
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)
Rae, Sir Henry N.
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-)e-Spring)
Tout, W. J.


M'Entee, V. L.
Ritson, J.
Treveiyan, C. P.


McLaren, Andrew
Roberts, C. H. (Derby)
Turner, Ben


Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
Walihead, Richard C.


Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


March, S.
Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)
Warne, G. H.


Marks, Sir George Croydon
Royce, William Stapleton
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Marshall, Sir Arthur H.
Saklatvala, S.
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)
Salter, Dr. A.
Webb, Sidney


Middleton, G.
Scrymgeour, E.
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Millar, J. D.
Sexton, James
 Weir, L. M.


Morel, E. D.
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)
Westwood, J.


Morris, Harold
Shinwell, Emanuel
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)


Mosley, Oswald
Simpson, J. Hope
Whiteley, W.


Muir, John W.
Sinclair, Sir A.
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)


Murnin, H.
Sitch, Charles H.
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Smillie, Robert
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)
Smith, T. (Pontefract)
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Atterciliffe)


O'Grady, Captain James
Snell, Harry
Wintringham, Margaret


Oliver, George Harold
Snowden, Philip
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Paling, W.
Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)
Wright, W.


Parker, H. (Hanley)
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)


Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Strauss, Edward Anthony
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Pattinson, R. (Grantham)
Sturrock, J. Leng



Parttinson, S. (Horncastle)
Sullivan, J.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Spoor.


Philipps, Vivian
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)



Ponsonby, Arthur
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)



Potts, John S.

CLASS 11.

"That a sum, not exceeding £5,122,370,be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924,for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class II of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:




£


1.
House of Lords Offices
28,970


2.
House of Commons
210,783


3.
Treasury and Subordinate Departments
204,952


5.
Foreign Office
113,707


8.
Privy Council Office
6,877


10.
Department of Overseas Trade
199,960


11.
Mercantile Marine Services
203,552


12.
Bankruptcy Department of the Board of Trade
5


13.
Mines Department of the Board of Trade
102,727


14.
Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries
1,064,451


15.
Forestry Commission
63,000


16.
Ministry of Transport
63,355


17.
Charity Commission
28,666


18.
Government Chemist
32,405


19.
Civil Service Commission
45,521


20.
Exchequer and Audit Department
98,100


21.
Friendly Societies Registry
29,445

£


22.
Government Actuary
22,746


23.
Board of Control, England
254,396


24.
The Mint
550,000


25.
National Debt Office
12,035


26.
Public Record Office
25,001


27.
Public Works Loan Corn-mission
5


28.
Registrar-General's Office, England
67,385


29.
State Management Districts
90


30.
Stationery and Printing
944,592


31.
Office of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues
20,075


32.
Office of Works and Public Buildings
374,580


33.
Secret Service
120,000


Scotland.


34.
Secretary for Scotland's Office
116,821


37.
General Board of Control
29,274


38.
Registrar-General's Office
13,179


Ireland.


39.
Irish Department, etc.
40,945


40.
Northern Ireland Services
32,042


41.
Privy Seal Office
4,025




£5,122,370"

Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 304; Noes, 201.

Division No. 312.]
AYES.
[10.20 p.m.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)
Barnett, Major Richard W.


Ainsworth, Captain Charles
Astor, Viscountess
Barnston, Major Harry


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)
Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence
Becker, Harry


Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Bellairs, Commander Cariyon W.


Apsley, Lord
Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)


Archer-Shoe, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin
Banks, Mitchell
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.
Barlow, t. Hon. Sir Montague
Berry, Sir George


Betterton, Henry B.
Garland, C. S.
Moreing, Captain Algernon H.


Birchan, Major J. Dearman
Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.
Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)


Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C.(Honiton)


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Goff, Sir R. Park
Murchison, C. K.


Blundell, F. N.
Gould, James C.
Nall, Major Joseph


Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W
Gray, Harold (Cambridge)
Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Grenfeil, Edward C. (City of London)
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)


Brass, Captain W.
Gretton, Colonel John
Newtown, Sir Percy Wilson


Brassey, Sir Leonard
Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Gwynne, Rupert S.
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)


Brittain, Sir Harry
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)


Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Nield, Sir Herbert


Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)
Hall, Rr-Admi Sir W. (Liv'peel,W.D'by)
Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John


Bruford, R.
Halstead, Major D.
O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh


Bruton, Sir James
Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William


Buckingham, Sir H.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Paget, T. G.


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Parker, Owen (Kettering)


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Harrison, F. C.
Pease, William Edwin


Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew
Harvey, Major S. E.
Pennefather, De Fonbianque


Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)
Hawke, John Anthony
Penny, Frederick George


Butcher, Sir John George
Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)


Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)
Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Perkins, Colonel E. K.


Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Perring, William George


Butt, Sir Alfred
Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)
Peto, Basil E


Button, H. S.
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Phillips, Mabel


Cadogan, Major Edward
Herbert, S. (Scarborough)
Pieiou, D. P.


Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Hewett, Sir J. P.
Pilditch, Sir Philip


Cassels, J. D.
Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray


Cautley, Henry Strother
Hiley, Sir Ernest
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Asshoton


Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
price, E. G.


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Maryiebone)
Privett, F. J.


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)
Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy
Rae, Sir Henry N.


Cecil, t. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)
Hood, Sir Joseph
Raeburn, Sir William H.


Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Hopkins, John W. W.
Rapine, W.


Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood)
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Rankin, Captain James Stuart


Chapman, Sir S
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk Peel


Chilcott, Sir Warden
Houfton, John Playwright
Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.


Churchman, Sir Arthur
Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)


Clarry, Reginald George
Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Reid, D. D. (County Down)


Clayton, G. C.
Hudson, Capt. A.
Remer, J. R.


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Hume, G. H.
Remnant, Sir James


Cockerili, Brigadier-General G. K.
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Reynolds, W. G. W.


Cohen, Major J. Brunel
Hurd, Percy A.
Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.


Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Hurst, Gerald B.
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)


Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)


Cope, Major William
Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)


Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Robertson-Despencer, Major(isigtn, W)


Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)


Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Rogerson, Capt. J. E.


Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page
Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul
Rothschild, Lionel de


Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)
Roundell, Colonel R. F.


Curzon, Captain Viscount
Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Ruggles-Brise, Major E.


Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)
Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel
Russell, William (Bolton)


Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney


Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)
Lamb, J. Q.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.
Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.


Dawson, Sir Philip
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Sanderson, Sir Frank B.


Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Sandon, Lord


Doyle, N. Grattan
Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.


Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Scott, Sir Leslie (Llverp'l, Exchange)


Edmondson, Major A. J.
Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley


Ednam, Viscount
Lordon, John William
Shepperson, E. W.


Elliot, Captain Walter E. (Lanark)
Lorimer, H. D.
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Ellis, R. G.
Lougher, L.
Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.


Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Lowe, Sir Francis William
Singleton, J. E.


Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)
Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Skelton, A. N.


Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.
Lumley, L. R.
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)
Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)


Eyres-M resell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Falcon, Captain Michael
McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)


Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray
Maddocks, Sir Henry
Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.


Fawkes, Major F. H.
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steels-
Stanley, Lord


Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)


Flanagan, W. H.
Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth


Foreman, Sir Henry
Manville, Edward
Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.


Forestier-Walker, L.
Margesson, H. D. R.
Stuart, Lord C. Crichton


Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot
Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Mercer, Colonel H.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.


Frece, Sir Waiter de
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Furness, G. J.
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Galbraith, J. F. W.
Molloy, Major L. G. S
Thorpe, Captain John Henry


Ganzoni, Sir John.
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Titchfield, Marquess of


Gardiner, James
Morden, Col. W. Grant
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement




Tubbs, S. W.
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield
Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Turton, Edmund Russborough
Wheeler, Col. Granville C. H.
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Wallace, Captain E.
White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)
Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward


Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)
Yerburgh, R. D. T.


Waring, Major Walter
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George



Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.
Winterton, Earl
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs and Captain Douglas King.


Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Wise, Frederick



Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)
Wolmer, Viscount



Wells, S. R.
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)



NOES.


Adams, D.
Hancock, John George
Pattinson, R. (Grantham)


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Harbord, Arthur
Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Hardie, George D.
Philiipps, Vivian


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Harney, E. A.
Ponsonby, Arthur


Ammon, Charles George
Harris, Percy A.
Potts, John S.


Attlee, C. R.
Hartshorn, Vernon
Pringle, W. M. R.


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hastings, Patrick
Rees, Sir Beddoe


Barnes, A.
Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)


Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Hayday, Arthur
Ritson, J.


Batey, Joseph
Hemmerde, E. G.
Roberts, C. H. (Derby)


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)


Berkeley, Captain Reginald
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Robertson-Despencer, Major(isigtn, W)


Bonwick, A.
Herriotts, J.
Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Hill, A.
Royce, William Stapleton


Briant, Frank
Hinds, John
Saklatvala, S.


Broad, F. A.
Hirst, G. H.
Salter, Dr. A.


Bromfield, William
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Scrymgeour, E.


Brotherton, J.
Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)
Sexton, James


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Buckle, J.
Irving, Dan
Shinwell, Emanuel


Burgess, S.
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)


Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John


Buxton, Charles (Accrington)
Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)
Simpson, J. Hope


Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)
Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)
Sinclair, Sir A.


Cape, Thomas
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Sitch, Charles H.


Chapple, W. A.
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Slivertown)
Smillie, Robert


Charleton, H. C.
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Smith, T. (Pontefract)


Clarke, Sir E. C.
Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)
Snell, Harry


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Snowden, Philip


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)
Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)


Collison, Levi
Jowett, W. A. (The Hartlepools)
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell
Kenyon, Barnet
Strauss, Edward Anthony


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Kirkwood, D.
Sturrock, J. Leng


Darbishire, C. W.
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George
Sullivan, J.


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Lansbury, George
Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William


Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)
Lawson, John James
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Leach, W.
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Lee, F.
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Duffy, T. Gavan
Linfield, F. C.
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Duncan, C.
Lowth, T.
Tout, W. J.


Dunnico, H.
Lunn, William
Trevelyan, C. P.


Ede, James Chuter
McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.
Turner, Ben


Edge, Captain Sir William
MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)
Wailhead, Richard C.


Edmonds, G.
M'Entee, V. L.
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
McLaren, Andrew
Warne, G. H.


Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


England, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Entwistle, Major C. F.
March, S.
Webb, Sidney


Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)
Marks, Sir George Croydon
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Fairbairn, R. R.
Marshall, Sir Arthur H.
Weir, L. M.


Falconer, J.
Martin, F. (Aberdeen & Kinc'd'ne, E.)
Westwood, J.


Foot, Isaac
Middleton, G.
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)
Millar, J. D.
White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)


Gilbert, James Daniel
Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz
Whiteley, W.


Gosling, Harry
Morel, E. D.
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Morris, Harold
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Gray, Frank (Oxford)
Mosley, Oswald
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Greenall, T.
Muir, John W.
Wintringham, Margaret


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Murnin, H.
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Wright, W.


Groves, T.
Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)
Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)


Grundy, T. W.
O'Grady, Captain James
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)
Oliver, George Harold



Guthrie, Thomas Maule
Paling, W.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Spoor.


Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Parker, H. (Hanley)



Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)



Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Class III

"That a sum, not exceeding £3,089,665,be ranted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will comp in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class III of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:




£


1.
Law Charges
140,798


2.
Miscellaneous Legal Expenses
30,098


3.
Supreme Court of Judicature etc.
337,534


4.
Land Registry
61,674


5.
Public Trustee
5


6.
County Courts
56,442


8.
Prisons, England and Wales
642,935


9.
Reformatory and Industrial Schools, England and Wales
197,687


10.
Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum
51,108

Scotland.




£


11.
Law Charges and Courts of Law
80,522


12.
Scottish Land Court
6,599


13.
Register House, Edinburgh
50,745


14.
Police
400,200


15.
Prisons
107,173


16.
Reformatory and Industrial Schools
61,766


Ireland.


17.
Supreme Court of Judicature Northern Ireland
32,864


18.
Irish Land Commission
831,515




£3,089,665"

Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes 326; Noes, 178.

Division No. 313.]
AYES.
[10.35 p.m.


Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent
Cautley, Henry Strother
Fraser, Major Sir Keith


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Frece, Sir Waiter de


Ainsworth, Captain Charles
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)
Furness, G. J.


Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)
Galbraith, J. F. W.


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Ganzoni, Sir John


Apsley, Lord
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Gardiner, James


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin
Chapman, Sir S.
Garland, C. S.


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.
Chilcott, Sir Warden
Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.


Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)
Churchman, Sir Arthur
George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)


Astor, Viscountess
Clarry, Reginald George
Gilbert, James Daniel


Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence
Clayton, G. C.
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Goff, Sir R. Park


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Cohen, Major J. Brunel
Gray, Harold (Cambridge)


Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)


Banks, Mitchell
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Gretton, Colonel John


Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague
Cope, Major William
Guest, Hon C. H. (Bristol, N.)


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)
Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.


Barnston, Major Harry
Cotts, Sir William Dingwali Mitchell
Guthrie, Thomas Maule


Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)
Gwynne, Rupert S.


Becker, Harry
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.


Bell, Lieut. Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)


Bellairs, Commander Canyon W.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Hall, Rr-Admi Sir W. (Liveep'I,W.D'by)


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Curzon, Captain Viscount
Halstead, Major D.


Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-
Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)
Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)


Berry, Sir George
Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry


Betterton, Henry B.
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)
Harrison, F. C.


Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Harvey, Major S. E.


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Dawson, Sir Philip
Hawke, John Anthony


Blundell, F. N.
Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)
Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)


Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.
Doyle, N. Grattan
Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Henn, Sir Sydney H.


Brass, Captain W.
Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.


Brassey, Sir Leonard
Edge, Captain Sir William
Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)


Brittain, Sir Harry
Ednam, Viscount
Herbert, S. (Scarborough)


Brown, Major D. C (Hexham)
Elliot, Capt. Waiter E. (Lanark)
Hewett, Sir J. P.


Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)
Ellis, R. G.
Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank


Bruford, R.
England, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Hiley, Sir Ernest


Bruton, Sir James
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Hinds, John


Buckingham, Sir H.
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)
Hoare, Lt.-Col. t. Hon. Sir S. J. G.


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Erskine-Boist, Captain C.
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)
Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy


Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew
Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)
Hood, Sir Joseph


Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)
Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.
Hopkins, John W. W.


Butcher, Sir John George
Falcon, Captain Michael
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)


Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)
Folle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)


Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)
Fawkes, Major F. H.
Houfton, John Plowright


Butt, Sir Alfred
Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.
Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)


Button, H. S.
Flanagan, W. H.
Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.


Cadogan, Major Edward
Foreman, Sir Henry
Hudson, Capt. A.


Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Forestier-Walker, L.
Hume, G. H.


Cassels, J. D.
Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer


Hurd, Percy A.
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.


Hurst, Gerald B.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Sinclair, Sir A.


Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Singleton, J. E.


Hutchison. Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)
Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Skelton, A. N.


Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)
Nield, Sir Herbert
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)


Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Paget, T. G.
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Parker, Owen (Kettering)
Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)


Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul
Pease, William Edwin
Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.


Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)
Pennefather, De Fonblanque
Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.


Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Penny, Frederick George
Stanley, Lord


Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Steel, Major S. Strang


Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)


Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Perring, William George
Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth


Lamb, J. Q.
Phillipson, Mabel
Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.


Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.
Plelou, D. P.
Strauss, Edward Anthony


Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Pilditch, Sir Philip
Stuart, Lord C. Crichton


Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray
Sturrock, J. Leng


Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Price, E. G.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.


Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Privett, F. J.
Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William


Lorden, John William
Rae, Sir Henry N.
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Lorimer, H. D.
Raeburn, Sir William H.
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Lougher, L.
Raine, W.
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Lowe, Sir Francis William
Rankin, Captain James Stuart
Thorpe, Captain John Henry


Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel
Titchfield, Marquess of


Lumley, L. R.
Rawson, Lieut.-Commander A. C.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.
Rees, Sir Beddoe
Tubbs, S. W.


Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Wallace, Captain E.


McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Remer, J. R.
Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)


Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
Remnant, Sir James
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)


Maddocks, Sir Henry
Reynolds, W. G. W.
Waring, Major Walter


Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.
Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.


Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)
Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)


Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)


Manville, Edward
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)
Wells, S. R.


Margesson, H. D. R.
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Marks, Sir George Croydon
Robertson-Despencer, Major(Isigtn, W)
Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.


Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Mercer, Colonel H.
Rogerson, Capt. J. E.
Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)


Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Rothschild, Lionel de
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Mitcheil, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Roundel‡, Colone) R. F.
Winterton, Earl


Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Ruggles-Brise, Major E.
Wise, Frederick


Molloy, Major L. G. S.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Wolmer, Viscount


Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz
Russell, William (Bolton)
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)


Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney
Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Morden, Col. W. Grant
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Moreing, Captain Algernon H.
Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Morris, Harold
Sanderson, Sir Frank B.
Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward


Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)
Sandon, Lord
Yerburgh, R. D. T.


Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C.(Honiton)
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)


Murchison, C. K.
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)



Nall, Major Joseph
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs and Captain Douglas King.


Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)
Shepperson, E. W.



Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)



NOES.


Adams, D.
Charleton, H. C.
Gray, Frank (Oxford)


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Clarke, Sir E. C.
Greenall, T.


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)


Ammon, Charles George
Collison, Levl
Groves, T.


Attlee, C. R.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Grundy, T. W.


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Darbishire, C. W.
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)


Barnes, A.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)


Batey, Joseph
Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Hancock, John George


Berkeley, Captain Reginald
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Harbord, Arthur


Bonwick, A.
Duffy, T. Gavan
Hardie, George D.


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Duncan, C.
Harney, E. A.


Briant, Frank
Dunnico, H.
Harris, Percy A.


Broad, F. A.
Ede, James Chuter
Hartshorn, Vernon


Bromfieid, William
Edmonds, G.
Hastings, Patrick


Brotherton, J.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwelity)
Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)
Hayday, Arthur


Buckle, J.
Entwistle, Major C. F.
Hemmerde, E. G.


Burgess, S.
Fairbairn, R. R.
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)


Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)
Falconer, J.
Herriotts, J.


Buxton, Charles (Accrington)
Foot, Isaac
Hill, A.


Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)
Gosling, Harry
Hirst, G. H.


Cape, Thomas
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John


Chapple, W. A.
Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)
Hodge, Lieut.-Colonel J. P. (Preston)


Irving, Dan
Murnin, H.
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Sullivan, J.


John, William (Rhondda West)
Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)
Newbold, J. T. W.
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)


Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)
O'Grady, Captain James
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Oliver, George Harold
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Jones, J. J. (West Ham. Slivertown)
Paling, W.
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Parker, H. (Hanley)
Tillett, Benjamin


Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)
Parkinson, John Alien (Wigan)
Tout, W. J.


Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Pattinson, R (Grantham)
Trevelyan, C. P.


Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)
Pattinson, S. (Horneastle)
Turner, Ber


Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)
Phillipps, Vivian
Wallhead, Richard C.


Kenyon, Barnet
Ponsonby, Arthur
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Potts, John S.
Warne, G. H.


Lambert, Rt. Hon. George
Pringle, W. M. R.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Lansbury, George
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Lawson, John James
Ritson, J.
Webb, Sidney


Leach, W.
Roberts, C. H. (Derby)
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Lee, F.
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
Weir, L. M.


Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)
Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Westwood J.


Linfield, F. C.
Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


Lowth, T.
Royce, William Stapleton
White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)


Lunn, William
Saklatvala, S.
Whiteley, W.


MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)
Salter, Dr. A.
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)


M'Entee, V. L.
Scrymgeour, E.
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


McLaren, Andrew
Sexton, James
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


March, S.
Shinwell, Emanuel
Wintringham, Margaret


Marshall, Sir Arthur H.
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)
Simpson, J. Hope
Wright, W.


Middleton, G.
Sitch, Charles H.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Millar, J. D.
Smillie, Robert



Morel, E. D.
Smith, T. (Pontefract)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Spoor.


Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Snell, Harry



Mosley, Oswald
Snowden, Philip



Muir, John W.

Calss IV.

"That a sum, not exceeding £27,100,140. be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class IV of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:




£


1.
Board of Education
25,934,047


2.
British Museum
171,816


3.
National Gallery
16,027


4.
National Portrait Gallery
5,149


5.
Wallace Collection
7,812


6.
London Museum
3,156


7.
Imperial War Museum
10,250

£


8.
Scientific Investigation, etc.
119,971


9.
Scientific and Industrial Research
176,863


10.
Universities and Colleges, Great Britain, and Intermediate Education, Wales
649,200


Scotland.


12.
National Galleries
5,849




£27,100,140"

Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 330; Noes, 180.

Divison No.314.]
AYES
[10.45p.m.


Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish
Butcher, Sir John George


Ainsworth, Captain Charles
Berry, Sir George
Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)
Betterton, Henry B.
Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)


Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)
Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Butt, Sir Alfred


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopoid C. M. S.
Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)
Button, H. S.


Apsley, Lord
Blades, Sir George Rowland
Cadogan, Major Edward


Archer-Shee,Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin
Blundell, F. N.
Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.
Cassels, J. D.


Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)
Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Cautley, Henry Strother


Astor, Viscountess
Brass, Captain W.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)


Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence
Brassey, Sir Leonard
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Brittain, Sir Harry
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)


Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton


Banks, Mitchell
Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)


Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague
Bruford, R.
Chapman, Sir S.


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Bruton, Sir James
Chilcott, Sir Warden


Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Buckingham, Sir H.
Churchman, Sir Arthur


Becker, Harry
Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Clarry, Reginald George


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Clayton, G. C.


Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.
Burn, Colone) Sir Charles Rosdew
Cobb, Sir Cyril


Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Hood, Sir Joseph
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray


Cohen, Major J. Brunel
Hopkins, John W. W.
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton


Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Price, E. G.


Collie, Sir John
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Privett, F. J.


Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Houston, John Plowright
Rae, Sir Henry N.


Cope, Major William
Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)
Raeburn, Sir William H.


Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)
Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Raine, W.


Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell
Hudson, Capt. A.
Rankin, Captain James Stuart


Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)
Hume, G. H.
Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel


Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.


Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page
Hurd, Percy A.
Rees, Sir Beddoe


Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Hurst, Gerald B.
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)


Curzon, Captain Viscount
Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)
Reid, D. D. (County Down)


Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)
Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)
Remer, J. R.


Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)
Remnant, Sir James


Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Instep, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Reynolds, W. G. W.


Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.


Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)


Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)


Dawson, Sir Philip
Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)


Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)
Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)


Doyle, N. Grattan
Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.
Robertson- Despencer, Major(Isigtn, W)


Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel
Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)


Edge, Captain Sir William
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Rogerson, Capt. J. E.


Edmondson, Major A. J.
Lamb, J. Q.
Rothschild, Lionel de


Ednam, Viscount
Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.
Roundell, Colonel R. F.


Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Ruggles-Brise, Major E.


Ellis, R. G.
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Russell, Alexander West (Tynernouth)


England, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Russell, William (Bolton)


Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney


Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)
Locker-Lampson, Corn. O. (Handsw'th)
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Erskine-Boist, Captain C.
Lorden, John William
Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.


Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)
Lorimer, H. D.
Sanderson, Sir Frank B.


Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)
Lougher, L.
Sandon, Lord


Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.M.
Lowe, Sir Francis William
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.


Falcon, Captain Michael
Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray
McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.
Shepperson E. W.


Faekes Major F. H
Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Fermor- Hesketh Major T.
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.


Flangan, W. H
McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Sinclair, Sir A.


Foreman Sir Henry
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I
Singleton, J. E.


Forestier-Walker, L.
Maddocks, Sir Henry
Skelton, A. N.


Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Fraser, Major Sir Kelth
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)


Frece Sir Walter de
Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Fremantle Lieut-Colonel Francis E.
Manville, Edward
Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)


Furness, G. J.
Margesson, H. D. R.
Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.


Galbraith, J. F. W
Marks, Sir George Croydon
Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.


Gardiner, James
Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Stanley, Lord


Garland, C. S.
Mercer, Colonel H.
Steel, Major S. Strang


Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)


Georg Major G. L.(Pembroke)
Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth


Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.


Gilbert, James Daniel
Molloy, Major L. G. S.
Strauss, Edward Anthony


Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz
Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-


Goff, Sir R. Park
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Sturrock, J. Leng


Gray, Harold (Cambridge)
Morden, Col. W. Grant
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)
Moreing, Captain Algernon H.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.


Gretton, Colonel John
Morris, Harold
Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William


Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)
Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.
Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C.(Honiton)
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Gwynne, Rupert S.
Murchison, C. K.
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Nall, Major Joseph
Thorpe, Captain John Henry


Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)
Titchfieid, Marquess of


Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liveep'I,W.D'by)
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Halstead, Major D.
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Tubbs, S. W.


Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Wallace, Captain E.


Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)


Harrison, F. C.
Nield, Sir Herbert
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)


Harvey, Major S. E.
O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh
Waring, Major Walter


Hawke, John Anthony
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.


Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)
Paget, T. G.
Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)


Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Parker, Owen (Kettering)
Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)


Hennessy, Major J R. G.
Pease, William Edwin
Wells, S. R.


Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)
Pennefather, De Fonblanque
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Penny, Frederick George
Wheeler, Col. Granville C. H.


Herbert, S. (Scarborough)
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


Hewett, Sir J. P.
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)


Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Perring, William George
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Hiley, Sir Ernest
Peto, Basil E.
Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)


Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Phillpson, Mabel
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Pielou, D. P.
Winterton, Earl


Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy
Pilditch, Sir Philip
Wise, Frederick




Wolmer, Viscount
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Major Barnston and Captain Douglas King.


Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, west)
Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward



Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)
Yerburgh, R. D. T.



Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)



NOES


Adams, D
Hardie, George D.
Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Harney, E. A.
Phillipps, Vivian


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Harris, Percy A.
Ponsonby, Arthur


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Hartshorn, Vernon
Potts, John S.


Ammon, Charles George
Hastings, Patrick
Price, E. G.


Attlee, C. R.
Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hayday, Arthur
Ritson, J.


BarnA.
Hemmerde, E. G.
Roberts, C. H. (Derby)


Batey, Joseph
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Herriotts, J.
Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn, W)


Berkeley, Captain Reginald
Hill, A.
Robinson, W. C. (York, Eliand)


Bonwick, A.
Hinds, John
Rose, Frank H.


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Hirst, G. H.
Royce, William Stapleton


Briant, Frank
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Saklatvala, S.


Broad, F. A.
Hodge, Lieut.-Colonel J. P. (Preston)
Saiter, Dr. A.


Bromfield, William
Irving, Dan
Scrymgeour, E.


Brotherton, J.
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Sexton, James


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Buckle, J.
Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)
Shinwell, Emanuel


Burgess, S.
Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)


Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth)
Simpson, J. Hope


Buxton, Charles (Accrington)
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Sitch, Charles H.


Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Smillie, Robert


Cape, Thomas
Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)
Smith, T. (Pontefract)


Chapple, W. A.
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Snell, Harry


Charleton, H. C
Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)
Snowden, Philip


Clarke, Sir E. C.
Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepoots)
Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Kenyon, Barnet
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Kirkwood, D.
Sullivan, J.


Collison, Levl
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Lansbury, George
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)


Darbishire, C. W.
Lawson, John James
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Leach, W.
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)
Lee, F.
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)
Tillett, Benjamin


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Linfield, F. C.
Tout, W. J.


Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Lowth, T.
Trevelyan, C. P.


Duffy, T. Gavan
Lunn, William
Turner, Ben


Duncan, C.
MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)
Wallhead, Richard C.


Dunnico, H.
M'Entee, V. L.
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Ede, James Chuter
McLaren, Andrew
Warne, G. H.


Edmonds, G.
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
March, S.
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)
Marshall, Sir Arthur H.
Webb, Sidney


Entwistle, Major C. F.
Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Fairbairn, R. R.
Middleton, G.
Weir, L. M.


Falconer, J.
Millar, J. D.
Westwood, J.


Foot, Isaac
Morel, E. D.
White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)


Gosling, Harry
Morrison, R. C. (Tottennam, N.)
Whiteley, W.


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Mosley, Oswald
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)


Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)
Muir, John W.
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Gray, Frank (Oxford)
Murnin, H.
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Greenall, T.
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)
Wintringham, Margaret


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Newbold, J. T. W.
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Groves, T.
C'Grady, Captain James
Wright, W.


Grundy, T. W.
Oliver, George Harold
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Paling, W.



Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Parker, H. (Hanley)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Spoor.


Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Parkinson, John Alien (Wigan)



Hancock, John George
Pattinson, R. (Grantham)



Harbord, Arthur

CLASS V.

"That a sum, not exceeding £10,121,528,be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class V of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:




£


1.
Diplomatic and Consular Services
631,965


2.
Colonial Services
943,223






£


2.
Colonial Services (Supplementary sum)
3,750,000


3.
Overseas Settlement
776,650


4.
Middle Eastern Services
3,968,500


4.
Middle Eastern Services (Supplementary sum)
5,000


5.
Telegraph Subsidies
4,000


6.
League of Nations
42,190




£10,121,528

Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 290; Noes, 202.

Divison
Ayes
[10.55p.m.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)
Lorden, John William


Ainsworth, Captain Charles
Doyle, N. Grattan
Lorimer, H. D.


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)
Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Lougher, L.


Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Lowe, Sir Francis William


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Ednam, Viscount
Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)


Apsley, Lord
Elliot, Capt. Waiter E. (Lanark)
Lumley, L. R.


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin
Ellis, R. G.
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.
England, Lieut.-Colonel A.
McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)


Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Maddocks, Sir Henry


Astor, Viscountess
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-


Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence
Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.
Makins, Brigadier-General E.


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)
Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.
Manville, Edward


Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Falcon, Captain Michael
Margesson, H. D. R.


Banks, Mitchell
Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray
Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.


Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague
Fawkes, Major F. H.
Mercer, Colonel H.


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw


Barnston, Major Harry
Foreman, Sir Henry
Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)


Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Forestier-Walker, L.
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)


Becker, Harry
Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot
Molloy, Major L. G. S.


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.


Bellairs, Commander Carryon W.
Frece, Sir Walter de
Mordent, Col. W. Grant


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Morelng, Captain Algernon H.


Berry, Sir George
Furness, G. J.
Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)


Betterton, Henry B.
Galbraith, J. F. W.
Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honition)


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Ganzoni, Sir John
Murchison, C. K.


Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)
Garland, C. S.
Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson


Blundell, F. N.
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)


Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Goff, Sir R. Park
Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)


Brass, Captain W.
Gray, Harold (Cambridge)
Nield, Sir Herbert


Brassey, Sir Leonard
Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)
O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Gretton, Colonel John
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William


Brittain, Sir Harry
Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.
Paget, T. G.


Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)
Gwynne, Rupert S.
Parker, Owen (Kettering)


Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Pease, William Edwin


Bruford, R.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Pennetather, De Fonblanque


Bruton, Sir James
Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W.D'by)
Penny, Frederick George


Buckingham, Sir H.
Halstead, Major D.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)


Buckley, Lieut..Colonel A.
Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)
Perkins, Colonel E. K.


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Perring, William George


Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew
Harrison, F. C.
Peto, Basil E.


Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)
Harvey, Major S. E.
Philipson, Mabel


Butcher, Sir John George
Hawke, John Anthony
Pielou, D. P.


Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)
Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)
Pilditch, Sir Philip


Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)
Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray


Butt, Sir Alfred
Herbert, Col. Hon. A (Yeovil)
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Asaheton


Button, H. S.
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Rae, Sir Henry N.


Cadogan, Major Edward
Herbert, S. (Scarborough)
Raeburn, Sir William H.


Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Raine, W.


Cassels, J. D.
Hiley, Sir Ernest
Rankin, Captain James Stuart


Cautley, Henry Strother
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel


Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)
Hood, Sir Joseph
Reid, D. D. (County Down)


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)
Hopkins, John W. W.
Remer, J. R.


Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Remnant, Sir James


Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Reynolds, W. G. W.


Chapman, Sir S.
Houfton, John Plowright
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)


Chilcott, Sir Warden
Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)


Churchman, Sir Arthur
Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)


Clarry, Reginald George
Hudson, Capt. A.
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)


Clayton, G. C.
Hume, G. H.
Robertson-Despencer,Major (Isigtn,W)


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Rogerson, Capt. J. E.


Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Hurd, Percy A.
Rothschild, Lionel de


Cohen, Major J. Brunel
Hurst, Gerald B.
Roundell, Colonel R. F.


Calfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)
Ruggles-Brise, Major E.


Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Cope, Major William
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Russell, William (Bolton)


Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney


Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)
Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Johnson, Sir L. (Waithamstow, E.)
Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.


Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page
Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Sanderson, Sir Frank B.


Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.
Sandon, Lord


Curzon, Captain Viscount
Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.


Daiziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Lamb, J. Q.
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley


Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.
Shepperson, E. W.


Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.


Davison,Sir W. H.(Kensington, S.)
Locker-Lampson, G.(Wood Green)
Singleton, J.E.


Dawson,Sir Phillip
Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)
Skelton, A. N.




Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)


Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)
Thorpe, Captain John Henry
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Titchfield, Marquess of
Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)


Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.
Tubbs, S. W.
Winterton, Earl


Stanley, Lord
Tutton, Edmund Russborough
Wise, Frederick


Steel, Major S. Strang
Wallace, Captain E.
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)


Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)
Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)
Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.
Waring, Major Walter
Yale, Colonel Sir Charles Edward


Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-
Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.
Yerburgh, R. D. T.


Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)



Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.
Wells, S. R.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain Douglas King and Major Hennessy.


Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield



Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.





NOES


Adams, D.
Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)
O'Grady, Captain James


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Guthrie, Thomas Maule
Oliver, George Harold


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Paling, W.


Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Parker, H. (Hanley)


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hilisbro')
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)


Ammon, Charles George
Hancock, John George
Pattinson, R. (Grantham)


Attlee, C. R.
Harbord, Arthur
Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hardie, George D.
Phillipps, Vivian


Barnes, A.
Harney, E. A.
Ponsonby, Arthur


Batey, Joseph
Harris, Percy A.
Potts, John S.


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Hartshorn, Vernon
Preston, Sir W. R.


Berkeley, Captain Reginald
Hastings, Patrick
Pringle, W. M. R.


Bonwick, A.
Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)
Rees, Sir Beddoe


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Hayday, Arthur
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)


Briant, Frank
Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)
Ritson, J.


Broad, F. A.
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Roberts, C. H. (Derby)


Bromfield, William
Herriotts, J.
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)


Brotherton, J.
Hill, A.
Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Hinds, John
Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)


Buckle, J.
Hirst, G. H.
Rose, Frank H.


Burgess, S.
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Royce, William Stapleton


Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)
Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)
Saklatvala, S.


Buxton, Charles (Accrington)
Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)
Salter, Dr. A.


Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)
Irving, Dan
Scrymgeour, E.


Cape, Thomas
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Sexton, James


Chapple, W. A.
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Charleton, H. C.
Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)
Shinwell, Emanuel


Clarke, Sir E. C.
Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)
Short, Alfred (Wedneebury)


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Simpson, J. Hope


Collie, Sir John
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Sinclair, Sir A.


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Sitch, Charles H.


Collison, Levi
Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)
Smillie, Robert


Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Smith, T. (Pontefract)


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)
Snell, Harry


Darbishire, C. W.
Jowett, W. A. (The Hartlepools)
Snowden, Philip


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Kenyon, Barnet
Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)


Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)
Kirkwood, D.
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Lansbury, George
Strauss, Edward Anthony


Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Lawson, John James
Sturrock, J. Leng


Duffy, T. Gavan
Leach, W.
Sullivan, J.


Duncan, C.
Lee, F.
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Donnico, H.
Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)


Ede, James Chuter
Linfield, F. C.
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Edge, Captain Sir William
Lowth, T.
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Edmonds, G.
Lunn, William
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Edwards, C (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)
Tillett, Benjamin


Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)
Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Tout, W. J.


Entwistle, Major C. F.
M'Entee, V. L.
Trevelyan, C. P.


Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)
McLaren, Andrew
Turner, Ben


Fairbairn, R. R.
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
Wallhead, Richard C.


Falconer, J.
March, S.
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Foot, Isaac
Marks, Sir George Croydon
Warne, G. H.


Gardiner, James
Marshall, Sir Arthur H.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)
Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Gilbert, James Daniel
Middleton, G.
Webb, Sidney


Gosling, Harry
Millar, J. D.
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz
Weir, L. M.


Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)
Morris, Harold
Westwood, J.


Gray, Frank (Oxford)
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


Greenall, T.
Muir, John W.
White, H. G (Birkenhead, E.)


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Murnin, H.
Whiteley, W.


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)


Groves, T.
Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Grundy, T. W.
Newbold, J. T. W.
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)




Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Wright, W.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Spoor.


Wintringham, Margaret
Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwhich)



Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

CLASS VI.

"That a sum, not exceeding £16,664,640,he granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VI of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:




£


1.
Superannuation and Retired Allowances
802,297


2.
Royal Irish Constabulary Pensions, etc.
172,424


3.
Old Age Pensions
13,200,000


5.
Merchant Seamen's War Pensions
302,819


6.
Miscellaneous Expenses
2,178


7.
Royal Commissions, etc.
65,000


8.
National Savings Committee
55,550


9.
Imperial War Graves Commission
719,000


10.
Repayments to the Local Loans Fund
100,200


11.
Expenses under the Representation of the People Act
215,000


12.
Government Hospitality fund
10,000


13.
Development Fund
175,000


14.
Ex-Service Men (Ireland) Grant
703,772


15.
Repayments to the Civil Contingencies Fund
141,400




£16,664,640"

Question put

MR. PRANGLE: (seated and covered): What is the class of this vote,and what is the sum asked for?

HON.MEMBER: Class VI, £16,000,000.

Mr. PRINGLE: The decrease from last year was £16,000,000. I presume that is not what is being asked for?

THE CHAIRMAN: I am sorry the hon. Member was not here when the Qestion was put the first time. I shall repeat the Question at the usual time.

Class VII.

"That a sum, not exceeding £10,343,849, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VII of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:




£


3.
Ministry of Labour
10,187,005


4.
National Insurance, Audit Department
116,590


5.
Friendly Societies' Deficiency
6,254


6.
Grants to Voluntary Hospitals
34,000




£10,343,849"

Question put.

The Committe divided: Ayes, 326; Noes, 177.

Division No. 316.]
AYES.
[11.8p.m


Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent
Betterton, Henry B.
Cadogan, Major Edward


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.


Ainsworth, Captain Charles
Blades, Sir George Rowland
Cassels, J. D.


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)
Blundell, F. N.
Cautley, Henry Strother


Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)


Apsley, Lord
Brass, Captain W.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin
Brassey, Sir Leonard
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton


Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)
Brittain, Sir Harry
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)


Astor, Viscountess
Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)
Chapman, Sir S.


Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence
Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)
Chilcott, Sir Warden


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Churchman, Sir Arthur


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Bruford, R.
Clarry, Reginald George


Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Bruton, Sir James
Clayton, G. C.


Banks, Mitchell
Buckingham, Sir H.
Cobb, Sir Cyril


Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague
Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Cohen, Major J. Brunel


Barnston, Major Harry
Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips


Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Burney, Corn. (Middx., Uxbridge)
Collie, Sir John


Becker, Harry
Butcher, Sir John George
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)
Cope, Major William


Bellairs, Commander Carryon W.
Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)
Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Butt, Sir Alfred
Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell


Berry, Sir George
Button, H. S.
Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)


Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Hurd, Percy A.
Remer, J. R.


Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page
Hurst, Gerald B.
Remnant, Sir James


Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)
Reynolds, W. G. W.


Curzon, Captain Viscount
Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)
Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.


Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)
Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)


Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)


Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Jackson. Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)


Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)


Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)
Johnson, Sir L. (Waithamstow, E.)
Robertson-Despencer, Major (Islgtn,W)


Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)


Dawson, Sir Philip
Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.
Rogerson, Capt. J. E.


Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)
Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel
Rothschild, Lionel de


Doyle, N. Grattan
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Roundell, Colonel R. F.


Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Lamb, J. Q.
Ruggies-Brise, Major E.


Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Edge, Captain Sir William
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Russell, William (Bolton)


Edmondson, Major A. J.
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney


Ednam, Viscount
Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Elliot, Capt. Waiter E. (Lanark)
Locker-Lampoon, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.


Ellis, R. G.
Lorden, John William
Sanderson, Sir Frank B.


England, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Loimer, H. D.
Sandon, Lord


Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Lougher, L.
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.


Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)
Lowe, Sir Francis William
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'1, Exchange)


Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.
Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley


Evans, Capt H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)
Lumley, L. R.
Shepperson, E. W.


Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)
Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon.Sir B. M.
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Simpson-Hinchiiffe, W. A.


Falcon, Captain Michael
McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Sinclair, Sir A.


Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
Singleton, J. E.


Fawkes, Major F. H.
Maddocks, Sir Henry
Skelton, A. N.


Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Flanagan, W. H.
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)


Foreman, Sir Henry
Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Forestier-Walker, L.
Manville, Edward
Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)


Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot
Margesson, H. D. R.
Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.


Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Marks, Sir George Croydon
Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.


Frece, Sir Walter de
Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Stanley, Lord


Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Mercer, Colonel H.
Steel, Major. S. Strang


Furness, G. J.
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Galbraith, J. F. W.
Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)


Ganzoni, Sir John
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth


Gardiner, James
Molloy, Major L. G. S.
Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.


Garland, C. S.
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Strauss, Edward Anthony


Gaunt. Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.
Morden, Col. W. Grant
Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-


George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)
Moreing, Captain Algernon H.
Sturrock, J. Leng


Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham
Morris, Harold
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Gilbert, James Daniel
Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.


Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Morrison-Bell,Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)
Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William


Goff, Sir R. Park
Murchison, C. K.
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Gray, Harold (Cambridge)
Nall, Major Joseph
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Gretton, Colonel John
Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Thorpe, Captain John Henry


Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Titchfield, Marquess of


Guthrie, Thomas Maule
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Gwynne, Rupert S.
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Tubbs, S. W.


Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Nield, Sir Herbert
Wallace, Captain E.


Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'1,W.D'by)
Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)


Halstead, Major D.
O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)


Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Waring, Major Walter


Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Paget, T. G.
Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.


Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Parker, Owen (Kettering)
Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)


Harrison, F. C.
Pease, William Edwin
Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)


Harvey, Major S. E.
Pennefather, De Fonblanque
Wells, S. R.


Hawke, John Anthony
Penny, Frederick George
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.


Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)


Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Perring, William George
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)
Peto, Basil E.
Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)


Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Philipson, Mabel
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Herbert, S. (Scarborough)
Pielou, D. P.
Winterton, Earl


Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Pilditch, Sir Philip
Wise, Frederick


Hiley, Sir Ernest
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray
Wolmer, Viscount


Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)


Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Price, E. G.
Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy
Privett, F. J.
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Hood, Sir Joseph
Rae, Sir Henry N.
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Hopkins, John W. W.
Raeburn, Sir William H.
Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward


Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Raine, W.
Yerburgh, R. D. T.


Houfton, John Plowright
Rankin, Captain James Stuart
Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)


Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)
Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel



Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Hudson, Capt. A.
Rees, Sir Beddoe
Captain Douglas King and Major Hennessy.


Hume, G. H.
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)



Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Reid, D. D. (County Down)





NOES.


Adams, D
Harney, E. A.
Ponsonby, Arthur


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Harris, Percy A.
Potts, John S.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Hartshorn, Vernon
Pringle, W. M. R.


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Hastings, Patrick
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)


Ammon, Charles George
Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)
Ritson, J.


Attlee, C. R.
Hayday, Arthur
Roberts, C. H. (Derby)


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)


Barnes, A.
Herriotts, J.
Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)


Batey, Joseph
Hill, A.
Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Hinds, John
Rose, Frank H.


Berkeley, Captain Reginald
Hirst, G. H.
Royce, William Stapleton


Bonwick, A.
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Saklatvala, S.


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)
Salter, Dr. A.


Briant, Frank
Irving, Dan
Scrymgeour, E.


Broad, F. A.
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Sexton, James


Bromfield, William
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Brotherton, J.
Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)
Shinwell, Emanuel


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)


Buckle, J.
Jones, Henry Haydn, (Merioneth)
Simpson, J. Hope


Burgess, S.
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Sitch, Charles H.


Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Smillie, Robert


Buxton, Charles (Accrington)
Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)
Smith, T. (Pontefract)


Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Snell, Harry


Cape, Thomas
Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)
Snowden, Philip


Chapple, W. A.
Jowitt W. A. (The Hartlepools)
Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)


Charleton, H. C.
Kenyon, Barnet
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Clarke, Sir E. C.
Kirkwood, D.
Sullivan, J.


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Lansbury, George
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)


Collison, Levi
Lawson, John James
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Leach, W.
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Darbishire, C. W.
Lee, F.
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Lees-Smith, H. B. (Kelghley)
Tillett, Benjamin


Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)
Linfield, F. C.
Tout, W. J.


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Lowth, T.
Trevelyan, C. P.


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Lunn, William
Turner, Ben


Duffy, T. Gavan
MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)
Wallhead, Richard C.


Duncan, C.
M'Entee, V. L.
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Dunnico, H.
McLaren, Andrew
Warne, G. H.


Ede, James Chuter
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Edmonds, G.
March, S.
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Marshall, Sir Arthur H.
Webb, Sidney


Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)
Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kincard'ne, E.)
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Entwistle, Major C. F.
Middleton, G.
Weir, L. M.


Fairbairn, R. R.
Millar, J. D.
Westwood, J.


Falconer, J.
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


Foot, Isaac
Mosley, Oswald
White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)


Gosling, Harry
Muir, John W.
Whiteley, W.


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Murnin, H.
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)


Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Greenall, T.
Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)
Williams, T.,(York, Don Valley)


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Newbold, J. T. W.
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
O'Grady, Captain James
Wintringham, Margaret


Groves, T.
Oliver, George Harold
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Grundy, T. W.
Paling, W.
Wright, W.


Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Parker, H. (Hanley)
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)



Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Pattinson, R. (Grantham)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Spoor.


Hancock, John George
Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)



Harbord, Arthur
Phillipps, Vivian



Hardie, George D.




Question put, and agreed to.

UNEMPLOYMENT GRANTS.

"That a sum, not exceeding £100,000,be granted to His be Majest to, complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924,or Relief arising out of Unemployment,

RELIEF OF UNEMPLOYMENT

"That a sum, not exceeding £750,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the
sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for Relief arising out of Unemployment,including a Grant in-Aid."

EXPORT CREDITS.

"That a sum not exceeding £150,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, to provide for Advances in respect of Exports of goods wholly or partly produced
or manufactured in the United Kingdom or guarantees in connection therewith."

Question put.

The Committee proceeded to a Division—

The CHAIRMAN stated that he thought the Ayes had it: and, on his decision being challenged, it appeared to him that the Division was unnecessarily claimed. Accordingly he called upon the Members who supported, and who challenged his decision, successively to rise in their places, and he declared that the Ayes had it.

CRIMINAL INJURIES (IRELAND) COMPENSATION.

"That a sum, not exceeding £1,445,010, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which

will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1924, for Compensation for Criminal Injuries, including Advances on account of prospective awards, and Medical and Nursing Expenses of Crown Employees who have been maliciously injured, also for the payment of Grants to refugees from Ireland for the Relief of Distress."

NORTHERN IRELAND GRANTS IN AID.

"That a sum, not exceeding £1,430,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1924, for Grants in Aid of the Revenues of the Government of Northern Ireland, including Compensation for Damage arising out of the disturbed condition of Ireland."

Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 298; Noes, 197.

Division No. 317.]
AYES.
[11.28 p.m.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Furness, G. J.


Ainsworth, Captain Charles
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Galbraith, J. F. W.


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)
Ganzoni, Sir John


Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Garland, C. S.


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)
Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.


Apsley, Lord
Chapman, Sir S.
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin
Chilcott, Sir Warden
Goff, Sir R. Park


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.
Churchman, Sir Arthur
Gray, Harold (Cambridge)


Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)
Clarry, Reginald George
Gretton, Colonel John


Astor, Viscountess
Clayton, G. C.
Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.


Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Gwynne, Rupert S.


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Cohen, Major J. Brunel
Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)


Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Halstead, Major D.


Banks, Mitchell
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)


Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague
Cope, Major William
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)


Barnston, Major Harry
Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)
Harrison, F. C.


Becker, Harry
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Harvey, Major S. E.


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page
Hawke, John Anthony


Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Curzon, Captain Viscount
Henn, Sir Sydney H.


Berry, Sir George
Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.


Betterton, Henry B.
Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Herbert, S. (Scarborough)


Blundell, F. N.
Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)
Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank


Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Hiley, Sir Ernest


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Dawson, Sir Philip
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.


Brass, Captain W.
Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Doyle, N. Grattan
Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy


Brittain, Sir Harry
Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Hood, Sir Joseph


Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Hopkins, John W. W.


Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)
Ednam, Viscount
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)


Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)


Bruford, R.
Ellis, R. G.
Houfton, John Plowright


Bruton, Sir James
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)


Buckingham, Sir H.
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)
Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Erskine-Bol0st, Captain C.
Hudson, Capt. A.


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)
Hume, G. H


Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew
Eyres-Monsell, Com. t. Hon. Sir B. M.
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer


Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)
Falcon, Captain Michael
Hurd, Percy A.


Butcher, Sir John George
Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray
Horst, Gerald B.


Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)
Fawkes, Major F. H.
Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)


Butt, Sir Alfred
Flanagan, W. H.
Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)


Button, H. S.
Foreman, Sir Henry
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.


Cadogan, Major Edward
Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.


Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul


Cassels, J. D.
Frece, Sir Waiter de
Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)


Cautley, Henry Strother
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)



Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.
Pease, William Edwin
Skelton, A. N.


Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel
Pennefather, De Fonblanque
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


King, Captain Henry Douglas
Penny, Frederick George
Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)


Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Lamb, J. Q.
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)


Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.
Perring, William George
Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.


Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Peto, Basil E.
Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.


Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Philipson, Mabel
Stanley, Lord


Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Pielou, D. P.
Steel, Major S. Strang


Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw,th)
Pilditch, Sir Philip
Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)


Lorden, John William
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray
Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth


Lorimer, H. D.
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.


Lougher, L.
Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.
Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-


Lowe, Sir Francis William
Price, E. G.
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Privett, F. J.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.


Lumley, L. R.
Raeburn, Sir William H.
Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William


Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Raine, W.
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Rankin, Captain James Stuart
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.
Thorpe, Captain John Henry


Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Rees, Sir Beddoe
Titchfield, Marquess of


Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Remer, J. R.
Tubbs, S. W.


Manville, Edward
Remnant, Sir James
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Margesson, H. D. R.
Reynolds, W. G. W.
Wallace, Captain E.


Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.
Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)


Mercer, Colonel H.
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)


Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Waring, Major Walter


Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)
Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.


Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)


Molloy, Major L. G. S.
Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn, W)
Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)


Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)
Wells, S. R.


Morden, Col. W. Grant
Rogerson, Capt. J. E.
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Moreing, Captain Algernon H.
Rothschild, Lionel de
Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.


Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)
Roundell, Colonel R. F.
White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)


Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C. (Honiton)
Ruggles-Brise, Major E.
Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.).


Murchison, C. K.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Nall, Major Joseph
Russell, William (Bolton)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney
Winterton, Earl


Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Wise, Frederick


Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.
Wolmer, Viscount


Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Sanderson, Sir Frank B.
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)


Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Sandon, Lord
Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Nield, Sir Herbert
Scott, Sir Leslie (Llverp'l, Exchange)
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward


O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh
Shepperson, E. W.
Yerburgh, R. D. T.


Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)



Paget, T. G.
Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs and Captain Hacking.


Parker. Owen (Kettering)
Singleton, J. E.



NOES.


Adams, D.
Collie, Sir John
Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Gray, Frank (Oxford)


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Collison, Levi
Greenall, T.


Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent
Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)


Attlee, C. R.
Darbishire, C. W.
Groves, T.


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Grundy, T. W.


Barnes, A.
Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)
Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)


Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Guthrie, Thomas Maule


Batey, Joseph
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)


Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)
Duffy, T. Gavan
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)


Berkeley, Captain Reginald
Duncan, C.
Hancock, John George


Bonwick, A.
Dunnico, H.
Harbord, Arthur


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Ede, James Chuter
Hardie, George D.


Briant, Frank
Edge, Captain Sir William
Harney, E. A.


Broad, F. A.
Edmonds, G.
Harris, Percy A.


Bromfield, William
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Hartshorn, Vernon


Brotherton, J.
Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)
Hastings, Patrick


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
England, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)


Buckle, J.
Entwistle, Major C. F.
Hayday, Arthur


Burgess, S.
Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)


Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)
Fairbairn, R. R.
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)


Buxton, Charles (Accrington)
Falconer, J.
Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)


Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)
Foot, Isaac
Herrlotts, J.


Cape, Thomas
Gardiner, James
Hill, A.


Chapple, W. A.
George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)
Hinds, John


Charleton, H. C.
Gilbert, James Daniel
Hirst, G. H.


Clarke, Sir E. C.
Gosling, Harry
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)




Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)
Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
O'Grady, Captain James
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


John, William (Rhondda, West)
Oliver, George Harold
Strauss, Edward Anthony


Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)
Paling, W.
Sturrock, J. Leng


Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)
Parker, H. (Hanley)
Sullivan, J.


Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Pattinson, R. (Grantham)
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)


Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)
Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Phillipps, Vivian
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Jewett, F. W. (Bradford, East)
Ponsonhy, Arthur
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)
Potts, John S.
Tout, W. J.


Kenyon, Barnet
Pringle, W. M. R.
Trevelyan, C. P.


Kirkwood, D.
Rae, Sir Henry N.
Turner, Ben


Lambert, Rt. Hon. George
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)



Lansbury, George
Ritson, J.
Warne, G. H.


Lawson, John James
Roberts, C. H. (Derby)
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Leach, W.
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Lee, F.
Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Webb, Sidney


Linfield, F. C.
Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Lowth, T.
Rose, Frank H.
Weir, L. M.


Lunn, William
Royce, William Stapleton
Westwood, J.


McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.
Saklatvala, S.
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)
Salter, Dr. A.
White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)


M'Entee, V. L.
Scrymgeour, E.
Whiteley, W.


McLaren, Andrew
Sexton, James
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)


Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


March, S.
Shinwell, Emanuel
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Marks, Sir George Croydon
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Marshall, Sir Arthur H.
Simpson, J. Hope
Wintringham, Margaret


Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kine'dine, E.)
Sinclair, Sir A.
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Middleton, G.
Sitch, Charles H.
Wright, W.


Millar, J. D.
Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)
Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)


Morris, Harold
Smith, T. (Pontefract)
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Snell, Harry



Mosley, Oswald
Snowden, Philip
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Ammon and Mr. Morgan Jones.


Murnin, H.
Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)



Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Spoor, B. G.



Question put, and agreed to.

DISPOSAL AND LIQUIDIATION COMMISSION

"That a sum not exceeding 40,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sun necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of 1924.

for the Salaries and Expenses of the Disposal and Liquidation Commission."

The Committee divided: Ayes,313; Noes,173.

Division No. 318.]
AYES.
[11.40 p.m.


Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent
Bruton, Sir James
Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Buckingham, Sir H.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)


Ainsworth, Captain Charles
Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Curzon, Captain Viscount


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Daiziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)


Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)
Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew
Davidson,J. C. C.(Hemel Hempstead)


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.


Apsley, Lord
Butcher, Sir John George
Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin
Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)
Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.
Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)


Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)
Butt, Sir Alfred
Dawson, Sir Philip


Astor, Viscountess
Button, H. S.
Dixon, Capt H. (Belfast, E.)


Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrencs
Cadogan, Major Edward
Doyle, N. Grattan


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Du Pre, Colonel William Baring


Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Cassels, J. D.
Edge, Captain Sir William


Banks, Mitchell
Cautley, Henry Strother
Edmondson, Major A. J.


Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Ednam, Viscount


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Elliot, Capt. Waiter E. (Lanark)


Barnston, Major Harry
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)
Ellis, R. G.


Barrie, Sir Charles Cougar (Banff)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
England, Lieut.-Colonel A.


Becker, Harry
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm.,w.)
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H (Devizes)
Chapman, Sir S.
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)


Bellairs, Commander Canyon W.
Chilcott, Sir Warden
Erskine-Boist, Captain C.


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Churchman, Sir Arthur
Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)


Berry, Sir George
Clarry, Reginald George
Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)


Betterton, Henry B.
Clayton, G. C.
Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Falcon, Captain Michael


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray


Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Fawkes, Major F. H.


Boyd Carpenter, Major A.
Collie, Sir John
Flanagan, W. H.


Brass, Captain W.
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Foreman, Sir Henry


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Cope, Major William
Forestier-Walker, L.


Brittain, Sir Harry
Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)
Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot


Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)
Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell
Fraser, Major Sir Keith


Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)
Fremantle, Lieut.Colonel Francis E.


Bruford, R.
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Furness, G. J.


Galbraith, J. F. W.
Lumley, L.R.
Rothschild, Lionel de


Ganzonl, Sir John
McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.
Roundell, Colonel R.F.


Gardiner, James
Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Ruggles-Brise, Major E.


Garland, C. S.
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.
McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Russell, William (Bolton)


George, Major G.L. (Pembroke)
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney


Gilbert, James Daniel
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.


Goff, Sir R. Park
Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Sanderson, Sir Frank B.


Gray, Harold (Cambridge)
Manville, Edward
Sandon, Lord


Gretton, Colonel John
Margesson, H. D. R.
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.


Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)
Marks, Sir George Croydon
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.
Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley


Gwynne, Rupert S.
Mercer, Colonel H.
Shepperson, E. W.


Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.


Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'1, W. D'by)
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Sinclair, Sir A.


Halstead, Major D.
Molloy, Major L. G. S.
Singleton, J. E.


Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Morden, Col. W. Grant
Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)


Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Moreing, Captain Algernon H.
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Harrison, F. C.
Morris, Harold
Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)


Harvey, Major S. E.
Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)
Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.


Hawke, John Anthony
Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)
Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.


Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)
Murchison, C. K.
Stanley, Lord


Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)
Nall, Major Joseph
Steel, Major S. Strang


Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)


Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovll)
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth


Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.


Herbert, S. (Scarborough)
Nicholson, Brig: Gen. J. (Westminster)
Strauss, Edward Anthony


Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-


Hiley, Sir Ernest
Nield, Sir Herbert
Sturrock, J. Leng


Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Hogg, t. H on. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.


Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William


Hood, Sir Joseph
Parker, Owen (Kettering)
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Hopkins, John W. W.
Pease, William Edwin
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Pennefather, De Fonblanque
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
 Penny, Frederick George
Thorpe, Captain John Henry


Houfton, John Plowright
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Titchfield, Marquess of


Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Perring, William George
Tubbs, S. W.


Hudson, Capt. A.
Peto, Basil E.
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Hume, G. H.
Philipson, Mabel
Wallace, Captain E.


Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Pielou, D. P.
Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)


Hurd, Percy A.
Pilditch, Sir Philip
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)


Hurst, Gerald B.
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray
Waring, Major Waiter


Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.


Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)
Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.
Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)


Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)
Price, E. G.
Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)


Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Privett, F. J.
Wells, S. R.


Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Rae, Sir Henry N.
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul
Raeburn, Sir William H.
Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.


Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)
Raise, W.
White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)


Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Rankin, Captain James Stuart
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.
Rawlinson, t. Hon. John Fredk. Peel
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel
Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.
Winterton, Earl


King, Captain Henry Douglas
Rees, Sir Beddoe
Wise, Frederick


Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Wolmer, Viscount


Lamb, J. Q.
Rower, J. R.
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)


Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.
Remnant, Sir James
Wood, Mal. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Reynolds, W. G. W.
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.
Worthington-Evans. Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)
Yerburgh, R. D. T.


Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)


Lorden, John William
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)



Lorimer, H. D.
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs.


Lougher, L.
Robertson-Despencer, Major(Isigtn,W)



Lowe, Sir Francis William
Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford)



Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Rogerson, Capt. J. E.



NOES.


Adams, D.
Berkeley, Captain Reginald
Burnie, Major J. (Bootie)


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Bonwick, A.
Buxton, Charles (Accrington)


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Briant, Frank
Cape, Thomas


Attlee, C. R.
Broad, F. A.
Chapple, W. A.


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Bromfield, William
Charleton, H. C.


Barnes, A.
Brotherton, J.
Clarke, Sir E. C.


Batey, Joseph
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Buckle, J.
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)


Bennett, A. J. (Mansfieid)
Burgess, S.
Collison, Levi





Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)
Rose, Frank H.


Darbishire, C. W.
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Royce, William Stapleton


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Saklatvala, S.


Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)
Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)
Saiter, Dr. A.


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Jones, T. 1. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Scrymgeour, E.


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)
Sexton, James


Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Duffy, T. Gavan
Kenyon, Barnet
Shinwell, Emanuel


Duncan, C.
Kirkwood, D.
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)


Dunnico, H.
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George
Simpson, J. Hope


Ede, James Chuter
Lansbury, George
Sitch, Charles H.


Edmonds, G.
Lawson, John James
Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwelity)
Leach, W.
Smith, T. (Pontefract)


Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)
Lee, F.
Snell, Harry


Entwistle, Major C. F.
Linfield, F C.
Snowden, Philip


Fairbairn, R. R.
Lowth, T.
Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)


Falconer, J.
Lunn, William
Spoor, B. G.


Foot, Isaac
MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Gosling, Harry
M'Entee, V. L.
Sullivan, J.


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
McLaren, Andrew
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)


Gray, Frank (Oxford)
March, S.
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Greenall, T.
Marshall, Sir Arthur H.
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Middleton, G.
Tout, W.J.


Groves, T.
Millar, J. D.
Trevelyan, C. P.


Grundy, T. W.
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Turner, Ben


Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Mosley, Oswald
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Murnin, H.
Warne, G. H.


Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Hancock, John George
Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Harbord, Arthur
Newbold, J. T. W.
Webb, Sidney


Hardie, George D.
O'Grady, Captain James
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Harris, Percy A.
Oliver, George Harold
Weir, L. M.


Hartshorn, Vernon
Paling, W.
Westwood, J.


Hastings, Patrick
Parker, H. (Hanley)
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)


Hayday, Arthur
Pattinson, R. (Grantham)
Whiteley, W.


Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)
Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)


Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Phillipps, Vivian
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Herriotts, J.
Ponsonby, Arthur
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Hill, A.
Potts, John S.
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Hinds, John
Pringle, W. M. R.
Wintringham, Margaret


Hirst, G. H.
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Ritson, J.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)
Roberts, C. H. (Derby)



Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Roberts, Frederick 0. (W. Bromwich)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Ammon and Mr. Morgan Jones.


John, William (Rhondda, West)
Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)



Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)
Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

SHIPPING LIQUIDATION

"That a sum, not exceeding £1,500,000, be granted to his majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of march 1924,

for the salaries and Expenses in connection with shipping liquidation."

Question Put.

The committee divided: Ayes, 295; Noes, 190.

Division No. 319.]
AYES.
[11.50 p.m


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Berry, Sir George
Button, H. S


Ainsworth, Captain Charles
Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Cadogan, Major Edward


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)
Blades, Sir George Rowland
Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.


Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)
Blundell, F. N.
Cassels, J. D.


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.
Cautley, Henry Strother


Apsley, Lord
Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin
Brass, Captain W.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.
Bridgeman, t. Hon. William Clive
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)


Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)
Brittain, Sir Harry
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton


Astor, Viscountess
Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)


Baird, t. Hon. Sir John Lawrence
Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)
Chapman, Sir S.


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Chilcott, Sir Warden


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Bruford, R.
Churchman, Sir Arthur


Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Bruton, Sir James
Clarry, Reginald George


Banks, Mitchell
Buckingham, Sir H.
Clayton, G. C.


Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague
Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Cobb, Sir Cyril


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.


Barnston, Major Harry
Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips


Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale


Becker, Harry
Butcher, Sir John George
Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)
Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell


Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.
Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)
Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Butt, Sir Alfred
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry


Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page
Hurst, Gerald B.
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)


Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)
Remer, J. R.


Curzon, Captain Viscount
Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)
Remnant, Sir James


Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Reynolds, W. G. W.


Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.


Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)


Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)


Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)
Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Roberts, t. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)


Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)


Dawson, Sir Philip
Kennedy, Captain M. S.
Nigel Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn,W)


Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)
King, Captain Henry Douglas
Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford)


Doyle, N. Grattan
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Rogerson, Capt. J. E.


Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Lamb, J. Q.
Rothschild, Lionel de


Edmondson, Major A. J.
Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.
Ruggles-Brise, Major E.


Ednam, Viscount
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Russell, William (Bolton)


Ellis, R. G.
Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney


England, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Locker-Lampson, Com. 0. (Handsw,th)
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Lorden, John William
Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.


Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)
Lorimer, H. D.
Sanderson, Sir Frank B.


Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.
Lougher, L.
Sandon, Lord


Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)
Lowe, Sir Francis William
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.


Eyres-Monsell I, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.
Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Falcon, Captain Michael
Lumley, L. R.
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley


Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Shepperson, E. W.


Fawkes, Major F. H.
McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Flanagan, W. H.
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.


Foreman, Sir Henry
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Singleton, J. E.


Forestier-Walker, L.
Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Skelton, A. N.


Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot
Manville, Edward
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Margesson, H. D. R.
Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)


Fremantle, Lieut. Colonel Francis E.
Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Furness, G. J.
Mercer, Colonel H.
Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)


Galbraith, J. F. W.
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.


Ganzoni, Sir John
Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.


Garland, C. S.
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Stanley, Lord


Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.
Molloy, Major L. G. S.
Steel, Major S. Strang


Gibbs. Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C
Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)


Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Morden, Col. W. Grant
Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth


Goff, Sir R. Park
Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)
Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.


Gould, James C.
Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)
Stuart, Lord C. Crichton


Gray, Harold (Cambridge)
Murchison, C. K.
Buster, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Gretton, Colonel John
Nall, Major Joseph
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.


Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.
Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)
Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William


Gwynne, Rupert S.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L.(Exeter)
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Thorpe, Captain John Henry


Halstead, Major D.
Nicholson, William G.(Petersfieid)
Titchfield, Marquess of


Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)
Nield, Sir Herbert
Tryon, t. Hon. George Clement


Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Norman, Major t. Hon. Sir Henry
Tubbs, S. W.


Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Harrison, F. C.
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Wallace, Captain E.


Harvey, Major S. E.
Paget, T. G.
Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)


Hawke, John Anthony
Parker, Owen (Kettering)
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)


Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)
Pease, William Edwin
Waring, Major Walter


Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Pennefather, De Fonblanque
Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.


Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Penny, Frederick George
Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)


Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)


Herbert, S. (Scarborough)
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Wells, S. R.


Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Purring, William George
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Hiley, Sir Ernest
Peto, Basil E.
Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.


Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Philipson, Mabel
White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)


Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Pielou, D. P.
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy
Pilditch, Sir Philip
Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie 0. (P'tsm'th, S.)


Hood, Sir Joseph
Pollock, t. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Hopkins, John W. W.
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Winterton, Earl


Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Pretyman, t. Hon. Ernest G.
Wise, Frederick


Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Privett, F. J.
Wolmer, Viscount


Houfton, John Plowright
Rae, Sir Henry N.
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)


Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)
Raeburn, Sir William H.
Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Raine, W.
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Hudson, Capt. A.
Rankin, Captain James Stuart
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Hume, G. H.
Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel
Yerburgh, R. D. T.


Hunter-Weston. Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.



Hurd, Percy A.
Rees, Sir Beddoe
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Major Cope and Colonel Roundell.


NOES.


Adams, D.
Ammon, Charles George
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Attiee, C. R.
Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Berkeley. Captain Reginald


Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent
Barnes, A.
Bonwick, A.


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Batey, Joseph
Briant, Frank




Broad, F. A.
Henderson, t. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)


Bromfield, William
Henderson, Sir T.(Roxburgh)
Ritson,J.


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)


Buckle, J.
Herrlotts, J.
Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)


Burgess, S.
Hill, A.
Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)


Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)
Hinds, John
Rose, Frank H.


Buxton, Charles (Accrington)
Hirst, G. H.
Royce, William Stapleton


Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Sakiatvala, S.


Cape, Thomas
Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)
Salter, Dr. A.


Charleton, H. C.
Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)
Scrymgeour, E.


Clarke, Sir E. C.
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Sexton, James


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Collie, Sir John
Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)
Shinwell, Emanuel


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)


Collison, Levi
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Simpson, J. Hope


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)
Sinclair, Sir A.


Darbishire, C. W.
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Sitch, Charles H.


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)
Smith, T. (Pontefract)


Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)
Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)
Snell, Harry


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Kirkwood, D.
Snowden, Philip


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George
Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)


Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Lansbury, George
Spoor, B. G.


Duffy, T. Gavan
Lawson, John James
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Duncan, C.
Leach, W.
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Dunnico, H.
Lee, F.
Strauss, Edward Anthony


Ede, James Chuter
Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)
Sturrock, J. Leng


Edge, Captain Sir William
Linfield, F. C.
Sullivan, J.


Edmonds, G.
Lowth, T.
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Lunn, William
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)


Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)
McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Entwistle, Major C. F.
MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)
Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Fairbairn, R. R.
M'Entee, V. L.
Tout, W. J.


Falconer, J.
McLaren, Andrew
Trevelyan, C. P.


Foot, Isaac
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Turner, Ben


Gardiner, James
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)
March, S.
Warne, G. H.


Gilbert, James Daniel
Marks, Sir George Croydon
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Gosling, Harry
Marshall, Sir Arthur H.
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)
Webb, Sidney


Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)
Middleton, G.
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Gray, Frank (Oxford)
Millar, J. D.
Weir, L. M.


Greenall, T.
Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz
Westwood, J.


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Morris, Harold
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


Groves, T.
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)


Grundy, T. W.
Mosley, Oswald
Whiteley, W.


Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)
Murnin, H.
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)


Guthrie, Thomas Maule
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
O'Grady, Captain James
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Oliver, George Harold
Wintringham, Margaret


Hancock, John George
Paling, W.
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Harbord, Arthur
Parker, H. (Hanley)
Wright, W.


Hardie, George D.
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)


Harney, E. A.
Pattinson, R. (Grantham)
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Harris, Percy A.
Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)



Hartshorn, Vernon
Phillipps, Vivian
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Morgan Jones and Mr. T. Griffiths.


Hastings, Patrick
Ponsonby, Arthur



Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)
Potts, John S.



Hayday, Arthur
Pringle, W. M. R.

RAILWAY AND CANAL (WAR) AGREEMENTS LIQUIDATION

"That a sum, not exceeding £1,315,220, be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st March 1924, to meet Expenditure arising from Government control of Railways and

Canals in great Britain and Ireland under The Regulation of the Forces act, 1871, section 16, and Defence of the Realm (con-solidation) Regulations, 9 H."

Question Put

The committee divided: Ayes, 304; Noes, 168.

COAL MINES DEFICIENCY.

"That a sum, not exceeding £1,000,000, be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge with will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st March 1924. to provide for the deficiency arising under the coal Mines Control Agreement (Con
firmation) Act, 1918, and for Payments to the Coal Mines (Emergency) Act Account under the coal mines (emergency)Act account under the coal mines emergency act 1920. and the coal mines (Decontrol)Act, 1921."

Question put

The committee divided: Ayes 295,Noes, 166.

Division No. 320.]
AYES.
[12 m.


Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent
Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)
Becker, Harry


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence
Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)


Ainsworth, Captain Charles
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)


Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)
Banks, Mitchell
Berry, Sir George


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague
Betterton, Henry B.


Apsley, Lord
Barnett, Major Richard W.
Birchall, Major J. Dearman


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin
Barnston, Major Harry
Blades, Sir George Rowland


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.
Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Blundell, F. N.



Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.
Gould, James C.
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Gray, Harold (Cambridge)
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)


Brass, Captain W.
Gretton, Colonel John
Nicholson, Brig, -Gen. J. (Westminster)


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)
Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)


Brittain, Sir Harry
Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E
Norman, Major t. Hon. Sir Henry


Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)
Guthrie, Thomas Maule
O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh


Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)
Gwynne, Rupert S.
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William


Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Paget, T. G.


Bruford, R.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Parker, Owen (Kettering)


Bruton, Sir James
Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Llv'p'1, W. D'by)
Pease, William Edwin


Buckingham, Sir H.
Halstead, Major D.
Pennefather, De Fonblanque


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)
Penny, Frederick George


Bull. Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)


Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Perkins, Colonel E. K.


Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)
Harrison, F. C.
perring, William George


Butcher, Sir John George
Harvey, Major S. E.
Peto, Basil E.


Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)
Hawke, John Anthony
Philipson, Mabel


Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)
Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)
Pleiou, D. P.


Butt, Sir Alfred
Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)
Pliditch, Sir Philip


Button, H. S.
Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray


Cadogan, Major Edward
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton


Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Herbert, S. (Scarborough)
Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.


Cassels, J. D.
Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Price, E. G.


Cautley, Henry Strother
Hiley, Sir Ernest
Privett, F. J.


Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Raeburn, Sir William H.


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Hogg, t. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Ralne, W.


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)
Hohier, Gerald Fitzroy
Rankin, Captain James Stuart


Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Hood, Sir Joseph
Rawlinson, t. Hon. John Fredk. Peel


Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Hopkins, John W. W.
Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.


Chapman, Sir S.
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Rees, Sir Beddoe


Chlicott, Sir Warden
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)


Churchman, Sir Arthur
Houfton, John Plowright
Remer, J. R.


Clarry, Reginald George
Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)
Remnant, Sir James


Clayton, G. C.
Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Reynolds, W. G. W.


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Hudson, Capt. A.
Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.


Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Hume, G. I
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)


Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)


Collie, Sir John
Hurd, Percy A.
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)


Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Hurst, Gerald B
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)


Cope, Major William
Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian N.)
Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn, W)


Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell
Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)
Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)


Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)
Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)
Rogerson, Capt J. E.


Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Rothschild, Lionel de


Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Roundell, Colonel R. F.


Curzon, Captain Viscount
Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul
Ruggies-Brise, Major E.


Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)
Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.
Russell, William (Bolton)


Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney


Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)
Lamb, J. Q.
Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.


Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.
Sanderson, Sir Frank B.


Dawson, Sir Philip
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Sandon, Lord


Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.


Doyle, N. Grattan
Lioyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'1, Exchange)


Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Locker-Lampson, Conn. O. (Handsw'th)
Shepperson, E. W.


Edge, Captain Sir William
Lorden, John William
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Edmondson, Major A. J.
Lorimer, H. D.
Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.


Ednam, Viscount
Lougher, L.
Sinclair, Sir A.


Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)
Lowe, Sir Francis William
Singleton, J. E.


Ellis, R. G.
Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Skelton, A. N.


England, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Lumley, L. R.
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.
Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)


Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)
Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)


Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)
McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.


Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.


Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.
Maltland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Stanley, Lord


Falcon, Captain Michael
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Steel, Major S. Strang


Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray
Manville, Edward
Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)


Fawkes, Major F. H.
Margesson, H. D. R.
Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth


Flanagan, W. H.
Mason, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.
Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.


Foreman, Sir Henry
Mercer, Colonel H.
Strauss, Edward Anthony


Forestier-Walker, L.
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-


Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot
Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Sturrock, J. Lang


Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Molloy, Major L. G. S.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.


Furness, G. J.
Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz
Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William


Galbraith, J. F. W.
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Ganzonl, Sir John
Morden, Col. W. Grant
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Gariand, C. S.
Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.
Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C. (Honiton)
Thorpe, Captain John Henry


George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)
Murchison, C. K.
Titchfield, Marquess of


Gibbs. Col. t. Hon. George Abraham
Nall, Major Joseph
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Gilbert, James Daniel
Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)
Tubbs, S. W.


Goff, Sir R. Park
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Turton, Edmund Russborough





Wallace, Captain E.
Wheler. Col. Granville C. H.
Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)
White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Waring, Major Walter
Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)
Yerburgh, R. D. T.


Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George



Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Winterton, Earl
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain Douglas King and Major Hennessy.


Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)
Wise, Frederick



Wells, S. R.
Welmer, Viscount



Weston, Colonel John Wakefield
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)



NOES.


Adams, D.
Hardie, George D.
Potts, John S.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Harris, Percy A.
Pringle, W. M. R.


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Hartshorn, Vernon
Rae, Sir Henry N.


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Hastings, Patrick
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)


Attlee. C. R.
Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)
Ritson. J.


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hayday, Arthur
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)


Barnes, A.
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)
Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)


Batey, Joseph
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Herriotts, J.
Rose. Frank H.


Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)
Hill, A.
Royce, William Stapleton


Berkeley, Captain Reginald
Hinds, John
Saklatvala, S.


Bonwick, A.
Hirst, G. H.
Salter, Dr. A.


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Scrymgeour, E.


Briant, Frank
Hodge, Lieut.-Colonel J. P. (Preston)
Sexton, James


Broad, F. A.
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Bromfield, William
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Shinwell. Emanuel


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)


Buckle, J.
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Simpson, J. Hope


Burgess, S.
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Sitch, Charles H.


Burnie, Major J. (Bootie)
Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)
Smith, T. (Pontefract)


Buxton, Charles (Accrington)
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Snell, Harry


Cape, Thomas
Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)
Snowden, Philip


Chapple, W. A.
Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)
Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)


Charleton, H. C.
Kirkwood, D.
Spoor, B. G.


Clarke, Sir E. C.
Lambert Rt. Hon. George
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Lansbury, George
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Collison, Levl
Lawson, John James
Sullivan, J.


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Leach, W.
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Darbishire, C. W.
Lee, F.
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)
Linfieid, F. C.
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Lowth, T.
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Lunn, William
Tout, W. J.


Dudgeon, Major C. R.
MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)
Trevelyan, C. P.


Duffy, T. Gavan
M'Entee, V. L.
Turner, Ben


Duncan, C.
McLaren, Andrew
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, lnce)


Dunnico, H.
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Warne, G. H.


Ede, James Chuter
March, S.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Edmonds, G.
Marks, Sir George Croydon
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Marshall, Sir Arthur H.
Webb, Sidney


Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)
Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Entwistle, Major C. F.
Middleton, G.
Westwood, J.


Fairbairn, R. R.
Millar, J. D.
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


Falconer, J.
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)


Foot, Isaac
Mosley, Oswald
Whiteley, W.


Gosling, Harry
Murnin, H.
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Gray, Frank (Oxford)
Newbold, J. T. W.
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Greenall, T.
O'Grady, Captain James
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Oliver, George Harold.
Wintringham, Margaret


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Paling, W.
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Groves, T.
Parker, H. (Hanley)
Wright, W.


Grundy, T. W.
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Pattinson, R. (Grantham)



Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)
Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Morgan Jones and Mr. Ammon.


Hancock, John George
Phillipps, Vivian



Harbord, Arthur
Ponsonby, Arthur

Division No. 321.]
AYES.
[12.12 a.m.


Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent
Ellis, R. G.
Lumley, L. R.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
England, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)


Ainsworth, Captain Charles
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm


Alexander, E E. (Leyton, East)
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)
McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)


Alexander, Col. M.(Southwark)
Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)
Makins, Brigadier-General E.


Apsley, Lord
Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)
Manville, Edward


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin
Eyres-M Onsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.
Margesson, H. D. R.


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.
Falcon, Captain Michael
Mason, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.


Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)
Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray
Mercer, Colonel H.


Baird, t. Hon. Sir John Lawrence
Fawkes, Major F. H.
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Flanagan, W. H.
Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)


Banks, Mitchell
Foreman, Sir Henry
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)


Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague
Forestier-Walker, L.
Molloy, Major L. G. S.


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot
Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz


Barnston, Major Harry
Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Morden, Col. W. Grant


Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Morris, Harold


Becker, Harry
Furness, G. J.
Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Galbraith, J. F. W.
Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honlton)


Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.
Ganzoni, Sir John
Murchison, C. K.


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Garland, C. S
Nall, Major Joseph


Berry, Sir George
Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.
Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)


Betterton, Henry B.
George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Gibbs, Col. t. Hon. George Abraham
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Gilbert, James Daniel
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)


Blundell, F. N.
Goff, Sir R. Park
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)


Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.
Gould, James C.
Nicholson, William G. (Petersfieid)


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Gray, Harold (Cambridge)
Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry


Brass, Captain W.
Gretton, Colonel John
O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William


Brittain, Sir Harry
Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.
Paget, T. G.


Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)
Guthrie, Thomas Maule
Parker, Owen (Kettering)


Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)
Gwynne, Rupert S.
Pease, William Edwin


Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Pennefather, De Fonblanque


Bruford, R.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Penny, Frederick George


Bruton, Sir James
Hall, Rr-Admi Sir W. (Llv'p'l, W. D'by)
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)


Buckingham, Sir H.
Halstead, Major D.
Perkins, Colonel E. K.


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Perring, William George


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Peto, Basil E.


Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew
Harrison, F. C.
Philipson, Mabel


Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)
Harvey, Major S. E.
Pielou, D. P.


Butcher. Sir John George
Hawke, John Anthony
Pilditch, Sir Philip


Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)
Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray


Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)
Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton


Butt, Sir Alfred
Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.


Button, H. S.
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Price, E. G.


Cadogan, Major Edward
Herbert, S. (Scarborough)
Privett, F. J.


Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Rae, Sir Henry N.


Cassels, J. D.
Hiley, Sir Ernest
Raeburn, Sir William H.


Cautley, Henry Strother
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Rains, W.


Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Hogg, t. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Rankin, Captain James Stuart


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Eveiyn (Aston)
Hohier, Gerald Fitzroy
Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.


Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Hood, Sir Joseph
Rees, Sir Beddoe


Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Hopkins, John W. W.
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)


Chapman, Sir S.
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Reamer, J. R.


Chlicott, Sir Warden
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Remnant, Sir James


Churchman, Sir Arthur
Houfton, John Plowright
Reynolds, W. G. W.


Clarry, Reginald George
Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)
Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.


Clayton, G. C.
Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Hudson, Capt. A.
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)


Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)


Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Hurd, Percy A.
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)


Collie, Sir John
Hurst, Gerald B.
Robertson-Despencer, Major (IsIgtn,W)


Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)
Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)


Cope, Major William
Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)
Rogerson, Capt. J. E.


Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell
Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)
Rothschild, Lionel de


Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Roundell, Colonel R. F.


Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page
Johnson, Sir L. (Waithamstow, E.)
Ruggles-Brise, Major E.


Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)
Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Curzon, Captain Viscount
Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.
Russell, William (Bolton)


Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)
Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney


Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Kinioch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Lamb, J. Q.
Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.


Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)
Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.
Sanderson, Sir Frank B.


Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Sandon, Lord


Dawson. Sir Philip
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.


Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)
Lloyd-Creams, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'1, Exchange)


Doyle, N. Grattan
Locker-Lampoon, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Shepperson, E. W.


Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Lorden, John William
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Edge, Captain Sir William
Lorimer, H. D.
Simpson-Hinchilffe, W. A.


Edmondson, Major A. J.
Lougher, L.
Sinclair, Sir A.


Ednam, Viscount
Lowe, Sir Francis William
Singleton, J. E.


Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)
Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Skelton, A. N.




Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)


Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)


Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)
Thorpe, Captain John Henry
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.
Titchfieid, Marquess of
Winterton, Earl


Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Wise, Frederick


Stanley, Lord
Tubbs, S. W.
Wolmer, Viscount


Steel, Major S. Strang
Turton, Edmund Russborough
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)


Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)
Wallace, Captain E.
Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth
Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Strauss, Edward Anthony
Waring, Major Walter
Yerburgh, R. D. T.


Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-
Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)



Sturrock, J. Leng
Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain Douglas King and Major Hennessy.


Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Wells, S. R.



Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.
Weston, Colonel John Wakefieid



Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William
Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. 





NOES.


Adams, D.
Hardle, George D.
Ponsonby, Arthur


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Harney, E. A.
Potts, John S.


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Harris, Percy A.
Pringle, W. M. R.


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Hartshorn, Vernon
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)


Attlee, C. R.
Hastings, Patrick
Ritson, J.


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)


Barnes, A.
Hayday, Arthur
Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)


Batey, Joseph
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)
Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)


Bonn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Rose, Frank H.


Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)
Herriotts, J.
Royce, William Stapleton


Berkeley, Captain Reginald
Hill, A.
Sakiatvala, S.


Bonwick, A.
Hinds, John
Salter, Dr. A.


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Hirst, G. H.
Scrymgeour, E.


Briant, Frank
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Sexton, James


Broad, F. A.
Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Bromfield, William
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Shinwell, Emanuel


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)


Buckle, J.
Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)
Simpson, J. Hope


Burgess, S.
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth)
Sitch, Charles H.


Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Smith, T. (Pontefract)


Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)
Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)
Snell, Harry


Cape, Thomas
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Snowden, Philip


Chapple, W. A.
Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)
Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)


Charleton, H. C.
Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)
Spoor, B. G.


Clarke, Sir E. C.
Kirkwood, D.
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Collison, Levi
Lansbury, George
Sullivan, J.


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Lawson, John James
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Darbishire, C. W.
Leach, W.
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Davies, J. C.(Denbigh, Denbigh)
Linfield, F. C.
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Lunn, William
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Davison. J. E. (Smethwick)
MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)
Tout, W. J.


Dudgeon, Major C. R.
M'Entee, V. L.
Turner, Ben


Duffy, T. Gavan
McLaren, Andrew
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Duncan, C.
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Warne, G. H.


Dunnico, H.
March, S.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Ede, James Chuter
Marks, Sir George Croydon
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Edmonds, G.
Marshall, Sir Arthur H.
Webb, Sidney


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kincardinee, E.)
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)
Middleton, G.
Weir, L. M.


Fairbairn, R. R.
Millar, J. D.
Westwood, J.


Falconer, J.
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


Foot, Isaac
Mosley, Oswald
White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)


Gosling, Harry
Murnin, H.
Whiteley, W.


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)


Gray, Frank (Oxford)
Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Greenall, T.
Newbold, J. T. W.
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
O'Grady, Captain James
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Oliver, George Harold
Wintringham, Margaret


Groves, T.
Paling, W.
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Grundy, T. W.
Parker, H. (Hanley)
Wright, W.


Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvli)
Pattinson, R. (Grantham)



Hancock, John George
Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Morgan Jones and Mr. Ammon.


Harbord, Arthur
Phillipps, Vivian



Question put, and agreed to.

PRIZE CLAIMS.

"That a sum, not exceeding £33,000, be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come of payments during the
year ending on the 31st day of March 1924, for Claims in respect of Ships or Cargoes condemned as Naval Prize or detained."

COAL MINING INDUSTRY SUBVENTION.

"That a sum, not exceeding £100, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1924, as a Subvention in Aid of Wages in the Coal Mining Industry."

GRANTS FOR COMPENSATION FOR DAMAGE BY ENEMY ACTION.

"That a sum, not exceeding £1,600,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 3lst day of March 1924, for Grants in respect of Compensation for Suffering and Damage by Enemy Action."

TRINITY COLLEGE, DUBLIN, GRANT IN AID.

"That a sum, not exceeding £20,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st

day of March 1924, for a Grant in Aid of Trinity College, Dublin."

AGRICULTURAL CREDITS.

"That a sum, not exceeding £500,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1924, for a Grant in Aid of Agricultural Credits."

Question put.

The Committee proceeded to a Division—

Mr. PRINGLE: (seated and covered): The last Question was distinctly challenged. It should have been put. You had no right to declare it carried without putting it. This was not done on an earlier Vote which was challenged by only one Member. Several Members challenged the last Vote.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 299; Noes, 120.

Division No. 322.]
AYES.
[12.22 a.m.


Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent
Butt, Sir Alfred
Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Cadogan, Major Edward
Falcon, Captain Michael


Ainsworth, Captain Charles
Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)
Cassels, J. D.
Flanagan, W. H.


Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)
Cautley, Henry Strother
Foreman, Sir Henry


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester. City)
Forestler-Walker, L.


Apsley, Lord
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Fraser, Major Sir Keith


Ashley, Lt.?Col. Wilfrid W.
Chapman, Sir S.
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.


Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)
Chapple, W. A.
Furness, G. J.


Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence
Clarke. Sir E. C.
Galbraith, J. F. W.


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Chilcott, Sir Warden
Ganzoni, Sir John


Banks, Mitchell
Clarry, Reginald George
Garland, C. S.


Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague
Clayton, G. C.
Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Cobb, Sir Cyril
George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)


Barnston, Major Harry
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Gibbs. Col.Rt. Hon. George Abraham


Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Gilbert, James Daniel


Becker, Harry
Collie, Sir John
Goff, Sir R. Park


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Gray, Harold (Cambridge)


Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.
Cope, Major William
Gretton, Colonel John


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell
Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)
Guthrie, Thomas Maule


Berry, Sir George
Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page
Gwynne, Rupert S.


Betterton, Henry B.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Curzon, Captain Viscount
Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Halstead, Major D.


Blundell, F. N.
Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry


Bonwick, A.
Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)


Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.
Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)
Harvey, Major S. E.


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Hawke, John Anthony


Brass, Captain W.
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Dawson, Sir Philip
Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)


Britain, Sir Harry
Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)


Broad, F. A.
Doyle, N. Grattan
Herbert, S. (Scarborough)


Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)
Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Hiley, Sir Ernest


Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)
Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Hinds, John


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Edge, Captain Sir William
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.


Bruford, R.
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)


Bruton, Sir James
Ednam, Viscount
Hohier, Gerald Fitzroy


Buckingham, Sir H.
Elliot, Capt. Waiter E. (Lanark)
Hopkins, John W. W.


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Ellis, R. G.
Horne, Sir R. S.(Glasgow, Hillhead)


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)
Houfton, John Plowright


Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew
England, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N)


Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)
Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.


Butcher, Sir John George
Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.
Hudson, Capt. A.


Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)
Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer


Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)
Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)
Hurst, Gerald B.


Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)
Parker, Owen (Kettering)
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)
Pattinson, R. (Grantham)
Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)


Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)
Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Pease, William Edwin
Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)


Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul
Pennefather, De Fonblanque
Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.


Johnson, Sir L. (Waithamstow, E.)
Penny, Frederick George
Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.


Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Stanley, Lord


Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Steel, Major, S. Strang


Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Purring, William George
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.
Peto, Basil E.
Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)


Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel
Philipson, Mabel
Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth


King, Captain Henry Douglas
Pielou, D. P.
Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.


Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Pilditch, Sir Philip
Strauss, Edward Anthony


Lamb, J. Q.
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray
Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-


Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Linfieid, F. C.
Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.


Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Price, E. G.
Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William


Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Privett, F. J.
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Rae, Sir Henry N.
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)


Lorden, John William
Raeburn, Sir William H.
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Lorimer, H. D.
Raine, W.
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Lougher, L.
Rankin, Captain James Stuart
Titchfield, Marquess of


Lowe, Sir Francis William
Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.
Tubbs, S. W.


Lumley, L. R.
Rees, Sir Beddoe
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Wallace, Captain E.


Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Remer, J. R.
Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)


McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Remnant, Sir James
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)


Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.
Waring, Major Waiter


Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)
Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)


Manville, Edward
Richardson, Lt-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)


Margesson, H. D. R.
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)
Weir, L. M.


Marks, Sir George Croydon
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Wells, S. R.


Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)
Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn,W)
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Mason, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.
Rogerson. Capt. J. E.
Westwood, J.


Mercer, Colonel H.
Rothschild, Lionel de
Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.


Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Roundell, Colonel R. F.
White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)


Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Royce, William Stapleton
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Ruggles-Brise, Major E.
Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie 0. (P'tsm'th, S.)


Molloy, Major L. G. S.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Morden, Col. W. Grant
Russell, William (Bolton)
Winterton, Earl


Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney
Wintringham, Margaret


Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C. (Honiton)
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Wise, Frederick


Murchison, C. K.
Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.
Wolmer, Viscount


Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Sanderson, Sir Frank B.
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)


Nall, Major Joseph
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)
Scrymgeour, E.
Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Shepperson, E. W.
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Newton, Sir Percy Wilson
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.
Yerburgh, R. D. T.


Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Sinclair, Sir A.



Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Singleton, J. E.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain Hacking and Major Hennessy.


O'Neill, Rt. Hon Hugh
Sitch, Charles H.



Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Skelton, A. N.



Paget, T. G.




NOES.


Adams, D.
Fairbairn, R. R.
Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Gosling, Harry
Jones, T. I. Hardy (Pontypridd)


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)


Ammon, Charles George
Gray, Frank (Oxford)
Kirkwood, D.


Attlee, C. R.
Greenall, T.
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Groves, T.
Lansbury, George


Barnett, A.
Grundy, T. W.
Lawson, John James


Batey, Joseph
Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)
Leach, W.


Briant, Frank
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Lee, F.


Buckle, J.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)


Burgess, S.
Hancock, John George
MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)


Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)
Harbord, Arthur
M'Entee, V. L.


Cape, Thomas
Hardie, George D.
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)


Charleton, H. C.
Harney, E. A.
March, S.


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Harris, Percy A.
Marshall, Sir Arthur H.


Collison, Levi
Hartshorn, Vernon
Middleton, G.


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Hastings, Patrick
Morris, Harold


Darbishire, C. W.
Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Hayday, Arthur
Mosley, Oswald


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)
Murnin, H.


Duffy, T. Govan
Hill, A.
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)


Duncan. C.
Hirst, G. H.
Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)


Dunnico, H.
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
O'Grady, Captain James


Ede, James Chuter
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Paling, W.


Edmonds, G.
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Parker, H. (Hanley)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedweilty)
Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)


Entwistle, Major C. F.
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Phillipps, Vivian




Ponsonby, Arthur
Snowden, Philip
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Potts, John S.
Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)
Webb, Sidney


Pringle, W. M. R.
Spoor, B. G.
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)


Ritson, J.
Sullivan, J.
Whiteley, W.


Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)


Royce, William Stapleton
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Saklatvala, S.
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Salter, Dr. A.
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Sexton, James
Tout, W. J.
Wintringham, Margaret


Shinwell, Emanuel
Trevelyan, C. P.
Wright, W.


Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Turner, Ben



Skelton, A. N.
Warne, G. H.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Lunn and Mr. Morgan Jones.


Smith, T. (Pontefract)
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)



Question put, and agreed to.

Mr. SCRMGEOUR: rose—[Interruption]. I want to protest—[Interuption]—

THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Caption Fitzroy): The hon. Member must obey the Standing Order of the House

REVENUE DEPARTEMENT ESTIMATE, 1923–24

"That a sum not exceeding £6,681,211, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day March 1924,

for Expenditure in respect of the Services include in the Estimate for Revenue Department, namely:




£


1.
Custom and Excise
2,759,000


2.
Inland Revenue
3,922,211




£6,681,211"

Queatin put

Mr PRINCIPLE: Does this include Post Office publicity?

The Committee divided: Ayes, 257; Noes,174.

Division No. 323.]
AYES.
[12.40 a.m.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Chapman, Sir S.
Gray, Harold (Cambridge)


Ainsworth, Captain Charles
Chilcott, Sir Warden
Gretton, Colonel John


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)
Churchman, Sir Arthur
Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.


Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)
Clarry, Reginald George
Gwynne, Rupert S.


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Clayton, G. C.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)


Apsley, Lord
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Halstead, Major D.


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)


Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)
Cope, Major William
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry


Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence
Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page
Harrison, F. C.


Banks, Mitchell
Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)
Harvey, Major S. E.


Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague
Curzon, Captain Viscount
Hawke, John Anthony


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Davidson, J. C C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Hay, M ajar T. W. (Norfolk, South)


Barnston, Major Harry
Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.


Becker, Harry
Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank


Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.
Dawson, Sir Philip
Hiley, Sir Ernest


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.


Berry, Sir George
Doyle, N. Grattan
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Hohier, Gerald Fitzroy


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Hood, Sir Joseph


Blundell, F. N.
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Hopkins, John W. W.


Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.
Ednam, Viscount
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)


Brass, Captain W.
Ellis, R. G.
Houfton, John Plowright


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)
Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)


Brittain, Sir Harry
Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.
Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.


Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)
Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)
Hudson, Capt. A.


Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer


Bruford, R.
Falcon, Captain Michael
Hurst, Gerald B.


Bruton, Sir James
Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray
Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)


Buckingham, Sir H.
Fawkes, Major F. H.
Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Flanagan, W. H.
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Foreman, Sir Henry
Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul


Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew
Forestier-Walker, L.
Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)


Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)
Foxcrott, Captain Charles Talbot
Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)


Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)
Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.


Butt, Sir Alfred
Fremantle, Lieut. Colonel Francis E.
Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel


Cadogan, Major Edward
Furness, G. J.
King, Captain Henry Douglas


Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Galbraith, J. F. W.
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement


Cassels, J. D.
Ganzonl, Sir John
Lamb, J. Q.


Cautley, Henry Strother
Garland, C. S.
Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.


Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)


Chadwick, Sir Robert Borton
Goff, Sir R. Park
Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip


Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Gould, James C.
Locker-Lampson, Corn. O. (Handsw'th)


Lorden, John William
Pilditch, Sir Philip
Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.


Lorimer, H. D.
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray
Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.


Lougher, L.
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Stanley, Lord


Lowe, Sir Francis William
Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.
Steel, Major S. Strang


Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Privett, F. J
Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)


Lumley, L. R.
Raine, W.
Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth


Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Rankin, Captain James Stuart
Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.


Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel
Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-


McNeill Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Manville, Edward
Reid, Capt. A S. C. (Warrington)
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.


Margesson, H. D. R.
Remer, J. R.
Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William


Mason, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.
Remnant, Sir James
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Mercer, Colonel H.
Reynolds, W. G. W.
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Millar, J. D.
Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Tubbs, S. W.


Molloy, Major L. G. S.
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Morden, Col. W. Grant
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Wallace, Captain E.


Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)
Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn,W)
Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)


Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)
Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)


Murchison, C. K.
Rogerson, Capt. J. E.
Waring, Major Walter


Nall, Major Joseph
Rothschild, Lionel de
Wells, S. R.


Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)
Roundel, Colonel R. F.
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Ruggles-Brise, Major E.
Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.


Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)


Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Russeil, William (Bolton)
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney
Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)


Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Norman. Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.
Winterton, Earl


O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh
Sanderson, Sir Frank B.
Wise, Frederick


Paget, T. G.
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)
Wolmer, Viscount


Parker, Owen (Kettering)
Shepperson, E. W.
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)


Pease, William Edwin
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Pennefather, De Fonblanque
Simpson-Hinchilffe, W. A.
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Penny, Frederick George
Singleton, J. E.
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Skelton, A. N.
Yerburgh, R. D. T.


Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)



Peto, Basil E.
Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain Hacking and Major Colfox.


Philipson, Mabel
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)



Pielou, D. P.
Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)



NOES.


Adams, D.
Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)


Adamson, Rt. Hon. Wiliiam
Entwistle, Major C. F. Jones,
 R. T. (Carnarvon)


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)


Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent
Fairbairn, R. R.
Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Falconer, J.
Kirkwood, D.


Ammon, Charles George
Foot, Isaac
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George


Attlee, C. R.
Gilbert, James Daniel
Lansbury, George


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertiliery)
Gosling, Harry
Lawson, John James


Barnes, A.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Leach, W.


Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Gray, Frank (Oxford)
Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)


Batey, Joseph
Greenall, T.
Linfield, F. C.


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)


Bonwick, A.
Groves, T.
Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)


Briant, Frank
Grundy, T. W.
M'Entee, V. L.


Broad, F. A.
Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)
McLaren, Andrew


Bromfield, William
Guthrie, Thomas Maule
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.


Buckle, J.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)
March, S.


Burgess, S.
Hancock, John George
Marks, Sir George Croydon


Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)
Harbord, Arthur
Marshall, Sir Arthur H.


Cape, Thomas
Hardie, George D.
Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)


Chapple, W. A.
Harney, E. A.
Middleton, G.


Charleton, H. C.
Harris, Percy A.
Millar, J. D.


Clarke, Sir E. C.
Hartshorn, Vernon
Morris, Harold


Collie, Sir John
Hastings, Patrick
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)
Mosley, Oswald


Collison, Levi
Hayday, Arthur
Murnin, H.


Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell
Henderson, t. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)
Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)


Darbishire, C. W.
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Newbold, J. T. W.


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Herriotts J.
O'Grady, Captain James


Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)
Hill, A.
Oliver, George Harold


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Hinds, John
Paling, W.


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Hirst, G. H.
Parker, H. (Hanley)


Duffy, T. Gavan
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)


Duncan, C.
Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)
Pattinson, R. (Grantham)


Dunnico, H.
Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)
Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)


Ede, James Chuter
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Phillipps, Vivian


Edge, Captain Sir William
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Ponsonby, Arthur


Edmonds, G.
Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)
Potts, John S.


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth)
Pringle, W. M. R.




Rae, Sir Henry N.
Snowden, Philip
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Rees, Sir Beddoe
Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Spoor, B. G.
Webb, Sidney


Ritson, J.
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Weir, L. M.


Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Strauss, Edward Anthony
Westwood, J.


Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)
Sturrock, J. Leng
White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)


Rose, Frank H.
Sullivan, J.
Whiteley, W.


Royce, William Stapleton
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)


Saklatvala, S.
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Salter, Dr. A.
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Scrymgeour, E.
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Sexton, James
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Wintringham, Margaret


Shinwell, Emanuel
Tout, W. J.
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Trevelyan, C. P.
Wright, W.


Sinclair, Sir A.
Turner, Ben



Sitch, Charles H.
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Lunn and Mr. Morgan Jones.


Smith, T. (Pontefract)
Warne, G. H.

Mr. PRINGLE: (seated and covered): May I call your attention to the fact that two hon. Members passed through the doors when the attendants were endeavouring to lock them?

NAVY ESTIMATES, 1923–24.

"That a sum, not exceeding £30,933,150, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1924, for Expenditure in respect of the Navy Services, namely:




£


2.
Victualling and Clothing for the Navy
4,742,500


3.
Medical Establishments and Services
516,000


4.
Civilians employed on Fleet Services
194,900


5.
Educational Services
353,000

£


6.
Scientific Services
435,800


7.
Royal Naval Reserves
572,800


8.
Sec. 1. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, &c. Personnel
6,694,000


8.
Sec. 2. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, &c. Matériel
5,988,200


8.
Sec. 3. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, &c. Contract Work
5,031,450


9.
Naval Armaments
5,344,900


11.
Miscellaneous Effective Services
1,059,600




£30,933,150"

Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 293; Noes, 145.

Division No. 324.]
AYES.
[12.43 a.m.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)


Ainsworth, Captain Charles
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Dawson, Sir Philip


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)
Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew
Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)


Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)
Butcher, Sir John George
Doyle, N. Grattan


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)
Dudgeon, Major C. R


Apsley, Lord
Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)
Du Pre, Colonel William Baring


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin
Butt, Sir Alfred
Edge, Captain Sir William


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.
Cadogan, Major Edward
Edmondson, Major A. J.


Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)
Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Ednam, Viscount


Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence
Cassels, J. D.
Elliot, Capt, Walter E. (Lanark)


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Cautley, Henry Strother
Ellis, R. G.


Banks, Mitchell
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
England, Lieut.-Colonel A


Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.


Barnston, Major Harry
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)


Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Chapman, Sir S.
Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)


Becker, Harry
Clarke, Sir E. C.
Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Chilcott, Sir Warden
Falcon, Captain Michael


Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.
Churchman, Sir Arthur
Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Clarry, Reginald George
Fawkes, Major F. H.


Berry, Sir George
Clayton, G. C.
Flanagan, W. H.


Betterton, Henry B.
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Foreman, Sir Henry


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Porestier-Walker, L.


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot


Blundell, F. N.
Collie, Sir John
Fraser, Major Sir Keith


Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Cope, Major William
Furness, G. J.


Brass, Captain W.
Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell
Galbraith, J. F. W.


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon William Clive
Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)
Ganzoni, Sir John


Brittain, Sir Harry
Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page
Garland, C. S.


Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.


Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)
Curzon, Captain Viscount
George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)


Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Gilbert, James Daniel


Bruford, R.
Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Goff, Sir R. Park


Bruton, Sir James
Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)
Gould, James C.


Buckingham, Sir H.
Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)
Gray, Harold (Cambridge)


Gretton, Colonel John
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)
Manville, Edward
Russell, William (Bolton)


Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.
Margesson, H. D. R.
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney


Guthrie, Thomas Maule
Marks, Sir George Croydon
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Gwynne, Rupert S.
Mason, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.
Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.


Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Mercer, Colonel H.
Sanderson, Sir Frank B.


Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'1, Exchange)


Hall, Rr-Adml. Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W. D'by)
Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Shepperson, E. W.


Halstead, Major D.
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)
Molloy, Major L. G. S.
Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.


Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Morden, Col. W. Grant
Sinclair, Sir A.


Harbord, Arthur
Morris, Harold
Singleton, J. E.


Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)
Skelton, A. N.


Harrison, F. C.
Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Harvey, Major S. E.
Murchison, C. K.
Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)


Hawke, John Anthony
Nall, Major Joseph
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)
Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)
Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)


Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.


Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.


Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Stanley, Lord


Herbert, S. (Scarborough)
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Steel, Major S. Strang


Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)


Hiley, Sir Ernest
Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth


Hinds, John
O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh
Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.


Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Strauss, Edward Anthony


Hogg, Rt. H on. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Paget, T. G.
Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-


Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy
Parker, Owen (Kettering)
Sturrock, J. Leng


Hood, Sir Joseph
Pattinson, R. (Grantham)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Hopkins, John W. W.
Pease, William Edwin
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.


Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Pennefather, De Fonblanque
Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William


Houfton, John Plowright
Penny, Frederick George
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)


Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Hudson, Capt. A.
Peto, Basil E.
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Philipson, Mabel
Titchfield, Marquess of


Hurst, Gerald B.
Pielou, D. P.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)
Pilditch, Sir Philip
Tubbs, S. W.


Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)
Pollock, t. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Wallace, Captain E.


Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.
Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)


Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul
Price, E. G.
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)


Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)
Privett, F. J.
Waring, Major Waiter


Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Rae, Sir Henry N.
Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)


Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Raine, W.
Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)


Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.
Rankin, Captain James Stuart
Wells, S. R.


Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel
Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.
Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.


Lamb, J. Q.
Rees, Sir Beddoe
White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)


Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Remer, J. R.
Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)


Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Remnant, Sir James
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Reynolds, W. G. W.
Winterton, Earl


Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.
Wise, Frederick


Lorden, John William
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)
Wolmer, Viscount


Lorimer, H. D.
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)


Lougher, L.
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)
Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Lowe, Sir Francis William
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn,W)
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Lumley, L. R.
Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)



Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Rogerson, Capt. J. E.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs and Captain Douglas King.


Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Rothschild, Lionel de



Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Roundell, Colonel R. F.



McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Ruggles-Brise, Major E.



NOES.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Chapple, W. A.
Falconer, J.


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Charleton, H. C.
Foot, Isaac


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Gosling, Harry


Ammon, Charles George
Collison, Levi
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)


Attlee, C. R.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Gray, Frank (Oxford)


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Darbishire, C. W.
Greenall, T.


Barnes, A.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)


Batey, Joseph
Davies, Rhys John (Westhouqhton)
Groves, T.


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Grundy, T. W.


Bonwick, A.
Duffy, T. Gavan
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)


Briant, Frank
Duncan, C.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)


Broad, F. A.
Dunnico, H.
Hancock, John George


Bromfield, William
Ede, James Chuter
Hardie, George D.


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Edmonds, G.
Harney, E. A.


Buckle, J.
Edwards. C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Harris, Percy A.


Burgess, S.
Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)
Hartshorn, Vernon


Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)
Entwistle, Major C. F.
Hastings, Patrick


Cape, Thomas
Fairbairn, R. R.
Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)




Hayday, Arthur
Mosley, Oswald
Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)


Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)
Murnin, H.
Spoor, B. G.


Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Herriotts, J.
Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Hill, A.
Newbold, J. T. W.
Sullivan, J.


Hirst, G. H.
O'Grady, Captain James
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Oliver, George Harold
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)
Paling, W.
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Parker, H. (Hanley)
Tout, W. J.


John, William (Rhondda, West)
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Trevelyan, C. P.


Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)
Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)
Turner, Ben


Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Phillipps, Vivian
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)
Ponsonby, Arthur
Warne, G. H.


Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Potts, John S.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)
Pringle, W. M. R.
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Kirkwood, D.
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Webb, Sidney


Lambert, Rt. Hon. George
Ritson, J.
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Lansbury, George
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
Weir, L. M.


Lawson, John James
Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Westwood, J.


Leach, W.
Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)
White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)


Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)
Rose, Frank H.
Whiteley, W.


Linfield, F. C.
Royce, William Stapleton.
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)


MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)
Saklatvala, S.
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


M'Entee, V. L.
Salter, Dr. A.
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


McLaren, Andrew
Scrymgeour, E.
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
Sexton, James
Wintringham, Margaret


March, S.
Shinwell, Emanuel
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Marshall, Sir Arthur H.
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Wright, W.


Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)
Sitch, Charles H.



Middleton, G.
Smith, T. (Pontefract)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Lunn and Mr. Morgan Jones.


Millar, J. D.
Snowden, Philip



Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

ARMY ESTIMATES, 1923–24.

"That a sum, not exceeding £32,000,100, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charges for Army Services, including Army (Ordnance Factories), which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1924, in respect of an esti-

mated net total cost of £52,510,000, and of liabilities outstanding on the first day of the year."

Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 282; Noes, 149.

Division No. 325.]
AYES.
[1.0 a.m.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Butcher, Sir John George
Edmondson, Major A. J.


Ainsworth, Captain Charles
Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)
Ednam, Viscount


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)
Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)
Elliot, Capt. Waiter E. (Lanark)


Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)
Butt, Sir Alfred
Ellis, R. G.


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Cadogan, Major Edward
England, Lieut.-Colonel A.


Apsley, Lord
Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin
Cassels, J. D.
Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.
Cautley, Henry Strother
Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)


Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)


Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Falcon, Captain Michael


Banks, Mitchell
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray


Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague
Chapman, Sir S.
Fawkes, Major F. H.


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Chilcott, Sir Warden
Flanagan, W. H.


Barnston, Major Harry
Churchman, Sir Arthur
Foreman, Sir Henry


Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Clarry, Reginald George
Forestier-Walker, L.


Becker, Harry
Clayton, G. C.
Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Fraser, Major Sir Keith


Bellairs, Commander Canyon W.
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Fremantle, Lieut.Colonel Francis E.


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Furness, G. J.


Berry, Sir George
Collie, Sir John
Galbraith, J. F. W.


Betterton, Henry B.
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Ganzoni, Sir John


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Cope, Major William
Garland, C. S.


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell
Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.


Blundell, F. N.
Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)
George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)


Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.
Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Gilbert, James Daniel


Brass, Captain W.
Curzon, Captain Viscount
Goff, Sir R. Park


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Gray, Harold (Cambridge)


Brittain, Sir Harry
Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)
Gretton, Colonel John


Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)
Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)
Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)


Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.


Bruford, R.
Dawson, Sir Philip
Guthrie, Thomas Mauls


Bruton, Sir James
Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)
Gwynne, Rupert S.


Buckingham, Sir H.
Doyle, N. Grattan
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Halstead, Major D.


Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew
Edge, Captain Sir William
Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)


Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Morris, Harold
Sanderson, Sir Frank B.


Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Harrison, F. C.
Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)
Shepperson, E. W.


Harvey, Major S. E.
Murchison, C. K.
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Hawke, John Anthony
Nall, Major Joseph
Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.


Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)
Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)
Singleton, J. E.


Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Skelton, A. N.


Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Herbert, S. (Scarborough)
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)


Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Hiley, Sir Ernest
Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)


Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.


Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh
Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.


Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Stanley, Lord


Hood, Sir Joseph
Paget, T. G.
Steel, Major S. Strang


Hopkins, John W. W.
Parker, Owen (Kettering)
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Pattinson, R. (Grantham)
Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)


Houfton, John Plowright
Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)
Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth


Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)
Pease, William Edwin
Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.


Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Pennefather, De Fonblanque
Strauss, Edward Anthony


Hudson, Capt. A.
Penny, Frederick George
Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-


Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Hurst, Gerald B.
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.


Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)
Peto, Basil E.
Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William


Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)
Philipson, Mabel
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Pielou, D. P.
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)


Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Johnson, Sir L. (Waithamstow, E.)
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.
Titchfield, Marquess of


Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.
Price, E. G.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel
Privett, F. J.
Tubbs, S. W


King, Capt. Henry Douglas
Rae, Sir Henry N.
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Raine, W.
Wallace, Captain E.


Lamb, J. Q.
Rankin, Captain James Stuart
Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)


Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.
Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)


Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.
Waring, Major Walter


Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Rees, Sir Beddoe
Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)


Lorden, John William
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)


Lorimer, H. D.
Remer, J. R.
Wells, S. R.


Lougher, L.
Remnant, Sir James
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Lowe, Sir Francis William
Reynolds, W. G. W.
Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.


Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.
White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)


Lumley, L. R.
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)


Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Winterton, Earl


Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn,W)
Wise, Frederick


Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)
Wolmer, Viscount


Manville, Edward
Rogerson, Capt. J. E.
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)


Margesson, H. D. R.
Rothschild, Lionel de
Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Marks, Sir George Croydon
Roundell, Colonel R. F.
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Mason, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.
Ruggles-Brise, Major E.
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Mercer, Colonel H.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Yerburgh, R. D. T.


Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Russell, William (Bolton)



Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain Hacking and Major Hennessy.


Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)



Molloy, Major L. G. S.
Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.



Morden, Col. W. Grant




NOES.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Hancock, John George


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Harbord, Arthur


Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Hardle, George D.


Attlee, C. R.
Duffy, T. Gavan
Harney, E. A.


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Duncan, C.
Harris, Percy A.


Barnes, A.
Dunnico, H.
Hartshorn, Vernon


Batey, Joseph
Ede, James Chuter
Hastings, Patrick


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Edmonds, G.
Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)


Bonwick, A.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Hayday, Arthur


Briant, Frank
Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)


Broad, F. A.
Entwistle, Major C. F.
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)


Bromfield, William
Fairbairn, R. R.
Herriotts, J.


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Falconer, J.
Hill, A.


Buckle, J.
Foot, Isaac
Hinds, John


Burgess, S.
Gosling, Harry
Hirst, G. H.


Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John


Cape, Thomas
Gray, Frank (Oxford)
Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)


Chapple, W. A.
Greenall, T.
Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)


Charleton, H. C.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)


Clarke, Sir E. C.
Groves, T.
John, William (Rhondda, West)


Collison, Levi
Grundy, T. W.
Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)


Darbishire, C. W.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)-




Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Paling, W.
Sullivan, J.


Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)
Parker, H. (Hanley)
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)
Phillipps, Vivian
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Kirkwood, D.
Ponsonby, Arthur
Tout, W. J.


Lambert, Rt. Hon. George
Potts, John S.
Trevelyan, C. P.


Lansbury, George
Pringle, W. M. R.
Turner, Ben


Lawson, John James
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Leach, W.
Ritson, J.
Warne, G. H.


Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Linfield, F. C.
Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)
Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)
Webb, Sidney


M'Entee, V. L.
Rose, Frank H.
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


McLaren, Andrew
Royce, William Stapleton
Weir, L. M.


Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Saklatvala, S.
Westwood, J.


March, S.
Salter, Dr. A.
White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)


Marshall, Sir Arthur H.
Scrymgeour, E.
Whiteley, W.


Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)
Sexton, James
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)


Middleton, G.
Shinwell, Emanuel
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Millar, J. D.
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Sinclair, Sir A.
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Mosley, Oswald
Sitch, Charles H.
Wintringham, Margaret


Murnin, H.
Smith, T. (Pontefract)
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Snowden, Philip
Wright, W.


Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)
Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)



Newbold, J. T. W.
Spoor, B. G.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Ammon and Mr. Lunn 


O'Grady, Captain James
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)



Oliver, George Harold
Sturrock, J. Leng

AIR FORCE ESTIMATE, 1923–24.

"That a sum, not exceeding £1,483,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for expenditure in respect of the Air Force Services, namely:




£


5.
Air Ministry
648,000


6.
Meteorological and Miscellaneous effective services
179,000

£


7.
Auxiliary and Reserve Forces
238,000


8.
Civil Aviation
287,000


9.
Half-Pay, Pensions, and other Non-effective Services
131,000




£1,483,000"

Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 277; Noes, 134.

Division No. 326.]
AYES.
[1.10 a.m.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Butt, Sir Alfred
Ellis, R. G.


Ainsworth, Captain Charles
Cadogan, Major Edward
England, Lieut.-Colonel A.


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)
Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith


Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)
Cassels, J. D.
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Cautley, Henry Strother
Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.


Apsley, Lord
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.


Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Falcon, Captain Michael


Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence
Chapman, Sir S.
Falls, Major Sir Bertram Godfray


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Chilcott, Sir Warden
Fawkes, Major F. H.


Banks, Mitchell
Churchman, Sir Arthur
Flanagan, W. H.


Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague
Clarry, Reginald George
Foreman, Sir Henry


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Clayton, G. C.
Forestier-Walker, L.


Barnston, Major Harry
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot


Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Fraser, Major Sir Keith


Becker, Harry
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Collie, Sir John
Furness, G. J.


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Galbraith, J. F. W.


Berry, Sir George
Cope, Major William
Ganzoni, Sir John


Betterton, Henry B.
Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell
Garland, C. S.


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)
Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page
George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)


Blundell, F. N.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Gibbs. Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham


Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.
Curzon, Captain Viscount
Gilbert, James Daniel


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Goff, Sir R. Park


Brass, Captain W.
Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)
Gray, Harold (Cambridge)


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)
Gretton, Colonel John


Brittain, Sir Harry
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.


Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)
Dawson, Sir Philin
Guthrie, Thomas Maule


Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)
Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)
Gwynne, Rupert S.


Bruford, R.
Doyle, N. Grattan
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.


Bruton, Sir James
Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Hall, Rr-Adml. Sir W. (Liv'pl,W. D'by)


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Edge, Captain Sir William
Halstead, Major D.


Butcher, Sir John George
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)


Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)
Ednam, Viscount
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry


Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)
Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)
Harbord, Arthur


Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Morden, Col. W. Grant
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Harrison, F. C.
Morris, Harold
Shepperson, E. W.


Harvey, Major S. E.
Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)


Hawke, John Anthony
Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C. (Honiton)
Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.


Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)
Murchison, C. K.
Sinclair, Sir A.


Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)
Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)
Singleton, J. E.


Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Skelton, A. N.


Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Herbert, S. (Scarborough)
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)


Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Hiley, Sir Ernest
Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)


Hinds, John
Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.


Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh
Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.


Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Stanley, Lord


Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy
Paget, T. G.
Steel, Major S. Strang


Hood, Sir Joseph
Parker, Owen (Kettering)
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Hopkins, John W. W.
Pattinson, R. (Grantham)
Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)


Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Pease, William Edwin
Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth


Houfton, John Plowright
Pennefather, De Fonblanque
Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.


Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)
Penny, Frederick George
Strauss, Edward Anthony


Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-


Hudson, Capt. A.
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Peto, Basil E.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.


Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)
Philipson, Mabel
Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William


Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)
Pielou, D. P.
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)


Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)


Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul
Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)
Price, E. G.
Titchfield, Marquess of


Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Privett, F. J.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Rae, Sir Henry N.
Tubbs, S. W.


Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.
Raine, W.
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel
Rankin, Captain James Stuart
Wallace, Captain E.


Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel
Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)


Lamb, J. Q.
Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)


Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.
Rees, Sir Beddoe
Waring, Major Waiter


Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)


Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Remer, J. R.
Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)


Lorden, John William
Remnant, Sir James
Wells, S. R.


Lorimer, H. D.
Reynolds, W. G. W.
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Laugher, L.
Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.
Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.


Lowe, Sir Francis William
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)
White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)


Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Lumley, L. R.
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Winterton, Earl


Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn, W)
Wise, Frederick


McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Rogerson, Capt. J. E.
Wolmer, Viscount


Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
Rothschild, Lionel de
Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Roundell, Colonel R. F.
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Manville, Edward
Ruggles-Brise, Major E.
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Margesson, H. D. R.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Yerburgh, R. D. T.


Mason, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.
Russell, William (Bolton)



Mercer, Colonel H.
Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Captain Douglas King.


Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)



Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.



Molloy, Major L. G. S.
Sanderson, Sir Frank B.



NOES.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Entwistle, Major C. F.
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Fairbairn, R. R.
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)


Attlee, C. R.
Foot, Isaac
Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Gosling, Harry
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)


Barnes, A.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Kirkwood, D.


Batey, Joseph
Gray, Frank (Oxford)
Lansbury, George


Bonwick, A.
Greenall, T.
Lawson, John James


Briant, Frank
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Leach, W.


Broad, F. A.
Groves, T.
Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)


Bromfield, William
Grundy, T. W.
Linfield, F. C.


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)


Buckle, J.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
M'Entee, V. L.


Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)
Hancock, John George
McLaren, Andrew


Cape, Thomas
Hardie, George D.
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)


Chapple, W. A.
Harney, E. A.
March, S.


Charleton, H. C.
Harris, Percy A.
Marshall, Sir Arthur H.


Clarke, Sir E. C.
Hartshorn, Vernon
Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)


Collison, Levi
Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)
Middleton, G.


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Hayday, Arthur
Millar, J. D.


Darbishire, C. W.
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Mosley, Oswald


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Herriotts, J.
Murnin, H.


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Hill, A.
Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)


Duffy, T. Gavan
Hirst, G. H.
Newbold, J. T. W.


Duncan, C.
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
O'Grady, Captain James


Dunnico, H.
Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)
Oliver, George Harold


Ede, James Chuter
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Paling, W.


Edmonds, G.
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Parker, H. (Hanley)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)




Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Webb, Sidney


Phillipps, Vivian
Sitch, Charles H.
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Ponsonby, Arthur
Smith, T. (Pontefract)
Weir, L. M.


Potts, John S.
Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)
Westwood, J


Pringle, W. M. R.
Spoor, B. G.
White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)


Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Whiteley, W.


Ritson, J.
Sturrock, J. Leng
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)


Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
Sullivan, J.
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Rose, Frank H.
Tout, W. J.
Wintringham, Margaret


Royce, William Stapleton
Trevelyan, C. P.
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Saklatvala, S.
Turner, Ben
Wright, W.


Salter, Dr. A.
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)



Scrymgeour, E.
Warne, G. H.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Lunn and Mr. Ammon.


Sexton, James
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)



Shinwell, Emanuel
Watts Morgan Lt. Col. D.(Rhondda)



Resolution agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

WAYS AND MEANS.

Considered in Committee.

[Captain FITZROY in the Chair.]

Resolved,
That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, the sum of £269,381,292 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."—[Colonel Leslie Wilson.]

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

NAVY EXPENDITURE, 1921–22.

Resolution reported,
Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the

SCHEDULE.


Number of Vote.
Navy Services, 1921–22. Votes.
Differences between Exchequer Grants and Net Expenditure.


Surpluses.
Deficits.




£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.


1
Wages, etc., of Officers, Seamen, and Boys, Coast Guards, and Royal Marine
—
161,859
3
7


2
Victualling and Clothing for the Navy
1,201,519
2
9
—


3
Medical Establishments and Services
76,765
7
9
—


4
Civilians employed on Fleet Service
—
91,243
7
4


5
Educational Services
59,907
19
0
—


6
Scientific Services
89,424
16
2
—


7
Royal Naval Reserves
120,544
5
2
—


8
Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc.:









I. Personnel
1,155,411
14
7
—



II. Materiel
3,247,729
7
7
—



III. Contract Work
811,863
10
3
—


9
Naval Armaments
672,532
6
11
—


10
Works, Buildings, and Repairs, at Home and Abroad.
1,100,115
1
7
—


11
Miscellaneous Effective Services
—
713,513
18
4


12
Admiralty Office
—
27,841
6
4


13
Half Pay and Retired Pay
68,299
7
1
—


14
Naval and Marine Pensions, Gratuities, and Compassionate Allowances.
122,131
17
6
—


15
Civil Superannuation, Compensation Allowances, and Gratuities.
—
203,993
8
0


—
Amount written off as irrecoverable
—
69,934
19
11



Total
8,726,244
16
4
1,268,386
3
6



NET SURPLUS
£7,457,858 12 10

31st day of March, 1922, and the statement appended thereto, that the aggregate expenditure on Nary Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services but that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the total difference between the Exchequer Grants for Navy Services and the net expenditure are as follows, namely:



£
s.
d.


Total Surpluses
8,726,244
16
4


Total Deficits
1,268,386
3
6


Net Surplus
£7,457,858
12
10

And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Navy Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Navy Services.

That the application of such sums be sanctioned."

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Wednesday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERadjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Twenty-five Minutes after One o'Clock a.m.